#The hunchback of Notre Dame

Disney’s “The Hunchback of Notre Dame” (1996) | Episode Transcript Below is the full transcript of the tenth episode of “The Hunchcast of Notre Dame,” a podcast about “The Hunchback of Notre Dame” (“Notre-Dame de Paris”) by Victor Hugo and its many adaptations. This episode features a guest appearance by acclaimed Notre Dame tour guide @ohquasimodo . If you’d like to listen to the full episode, visit Spotify , Apple Podcasts , or YouTube . 🔔✨🐐💜 [Leslie] Come one, come all, we’re celebrating the 30th anniversary of Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame with a live-streamed Q&A with some of the very special people who made the movie, lyricist Stephen Schwartz, producer Don Hahn, directors Gary Trousdale and Kirk Wise, story writer Tab Murphy, and Kathy Zielinski, Claude Frollo’s supervising animator. This event will be live-streamed on Saturday, June 20th at 11am pacific time, 2pm eastern time. That’s Saturday, June 20th at 11am pacific time and 2pm eastern time on youtube.com slash at hunchback 30th anniversary and the link is in the show notes below. For those of you who can’t watch the event live, a recording of the live stream will be uploaded to youtube.com slash at hunchback 30th anniversary. We can’t wait for you to join the party. [Patrick] Welcome to The Hunchcast, where we discuss all things The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I’m Patrick. [Leslie] And I’m Leslie. And today we’re discussing Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame, released in 1996, that’s 30 years ago this month by the way, directed by Kirk Wise and Gary Trousdale and starring Tom Hulse, Demi Moore, Kevin Kline, and the late great Tony Jay. This has been our most requested Hunchback adaptation. So to help us do this movie justice, we have invited a very dear friend of ours whose love for this story has truly taken her all over the world. She is coming to us from Paris, France, where she runs her own business giving tours of Notre Dame Cathedral. Yes, listener, she is that cool. It’s Miss Emily McKinnon, aka Emily of Notre Dame. Emily, thank you so much for joining us today. [Emily] Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be on the podcast. [Leslie] And we are so excited to have you and to finally get to introduce your expertise and your passion to our listeners. Before we get into this movie, would you like to take a moment to introduce yourself and explain who you are, where your love for Hunchback started, and how it’s evolved over time? [Emily] Well, my love of The Hunchback of Notre Dame started, well, it will be 20 years at the end of this year, which I really don’t like saying out loud, but it started through a few different ways. And the first introduction was actually through the French musical “Notre-Dame de Paris”, which I believe there will be another episode on in the future. But in terms of the Disney movie specifically, that was, I believe it was the second or third adaptation that I watched. But it was really through the character of Quasimodo and his songs and his storyline that really attracted me to the Disney adaptation specifically. But my love of the story and of Notre Dame itself and multiple adaptations has really expanded since 2006. To be able to put that into a few sentences, I feel like is incredibly difficult because I don’t know what part of my life The Hunchback of Notre Dame has not touched. I’m originally from London, Ontario in Canada. So the closest major city is Toronto. And now I live in Paris because of my love for The Hunchback of Notre Dame and of the Notre Dame Cathedral. So I moved here in 2024, specifically to start my own business, giving private tours of the Notre Dame Cathedral, which is actually named after Quasimodo. So the business name is Quasimodo and his cathedral tours. But I do focus a lot on the historical aspects of the cathedral and the chronological history of its construction straight through to the night of the fire and through the restoration process to the present day. And in addition to all of that, I also travel around the world to see different theater productions of The Hunchback of Notre Dame and of Notre Dame de Paris. I believe right now, at this point in time, I’m sitting at about 40 to 45 different adaptations across nine different countries. I have yet to decide what my 10th country will be to see a production in, but hopefully that will not be too far off. In addition to my professional life and traveling to see the different shows, I’ve also collected what I believe can be now considered a museum. I have collected over 1000 items of memorabilia for The Hunchback of Notre Dame. So that has also taken over quite a bit of my life as well. [Leslie] And you also run the, as far as I know, the biggest Hunchback of Notre Dame-focused Discord server, right? And you also run the Hunchback of Notre Dame subreddit? [Emily] I do. I believe it was just a few months before I moved to Paris, so I believe that was February-ish of 2024 when I started the Discord server. And we are almost at 200 members. I think we’re just maybe four or five away from 200. So hopefully we’ll cross that to threshold soon. [Leslie] Yeah, wonderful. And listener, if you’re interested in getting involved in either of those communities on either of those platforms, we’ll link all of the information in the show notes below. And at what point in those 20 years did you realize, okay, I could move to Paris, France, and I could make a living off of this? [Emily] I visited Paris for the first time in 2011. And when I came to Paris, I noticed that there were a lot of different tours and activities that were themed to various historical figures in Paris. So there were Marie Antoinette tours, there were tours that focused on Napoleon, there were tours about the man who built the Eiffel Tower, but there was nothing to do with the Hunchback of Notre Dame. And I thought, okay, well, what if I did something? I could do this, right? Like, I have enough knowledge and I love the story enough that I could do costume tours as Esmeralda. I did my post-secondary education in tourism and travel. And for one of the final courses, the final capstone project was to pitch an idea for a unique tour experience. So I ended up pitching an idea for a Hunchback of Notre Dame themed tour. And at the time it was very much in draft form, but when I look back on what I pitched, and I believe the date of that PowerPoint was April of 2013, it’s really cool to see how that idea has evolved over the years. So I came back to Paris in 2018 and I decided, okay, well, next summer I’ll move to Paris and I’ll start all this. Well, unfortunately, April 15th of 2019, there was a big fire at Notre Dame and those plans had to be put on pause. But that night also, and I don’t want to sound corny by saying this, but that night also really lit a fire under me because I realized that I didn’t want to wait any longer. So the five years that were spent rebuilding the cathedral, I spent preparing this move. So I realized that I wanted to be here for reopening, which was in 2024. So I moved just a few months ahead of the reopening. I waited till the Olympics were finished because I added a whole layer of complications that I just didn’t want to be here for. But I was able to be here for the reopening and to finally realize this dream that I’d had since I was 12. And actually my first introduction to the cathedral itself started long before my introduction to the Hunchback or the Disney adaptation. It was another school project back in 2003. And I don’t know how schools are in the United States, but in Canada and in Ontario specifically, the curriculum requires that all fourth graders learn about the middle ages. I believe it’s still this way today, actually. But at the end of the curriculum, we had to choose a topic off a list to write a little report on. And I have no idea why I chose it, but for some reason I chose the topic of stained glass windows and Gothic cathedrals. I had no idea what a Gothic cathedral was. I had no idea what Notre Dame was. I did know what stained glass was. We had it in the house as decoration, especially around Christmas. So I guess that’s what drew me to it. I was nine, so who knows? And I ended up doing a report on the making of stained glass and stained glass windows in Notre Dame, Saint-Chapelle, and Chartres. And then I put it away and moved on with the rest of my life, as one does when you’re in fourth grade. And well, for whatever reason, I kept that project. Now, I didn’t keep a lot of things from my school days. I kept maybe two or three things, maybe four or five at absolute most. Now jumping ahead to the restoration process of the cathedral. Over the course of the restoration, I’ve been very, very lucky. And I’ve gotten to know a lot of people who have worked on the restoration and are still working on the restoration today. And one of those teams is actually the group of scientists that are in charge of the conservation and the restoration of the stained glass windows. And I was at a conference with them a few months before I moved, and I told them, hey, if I can find it during the move, I have something I really want to show you. And luckily, I was able to find it. So in October, after I moved, I was at another conference with them, and I was able to present this team with the project that I wrote in 2003. This was a very cool 21-year full circle moment to be able to present them with this project that I wrote about stained glass in 2003. And this was my first introduction to Notre Dame with the scientific research team in charge of the restoration and the preservation of the stained glass windows. And I actually was able to get a photo with all of them, and they all signed my project. So it was a very, very nerdy moment, but very nostalgic and very special to have this come full circle 21 years later. [Leslie] And if I’m not mistaken, there is some writing of yours that is forever solidified inside Notre Dame Cathedral? [Emily] Yes, you are correct. So I have my name and my signature, as well as a little note that I wrote inside one of the beams of the new framework of the roof. And some of that writing does include text from the musical, so we can chat about that when we chat about the musical episodes. [Leslie] Now, not to be that person, but if you had a dollar for every time somebody called you the real Emily in Paris, what would you be able to afford to buy? I could buy the entire block that stretches from the front of Notre Dame all the way back to the back of the island. Well, I mean, judging by my own experience, you pretty much already own it. Listener, Patrick and I were privileged enough to fly to Paris earlier this year and spend an entire week with Emily. And we went on her tour through Quasimodo and his cathedral tours, and I was absolutely astounded by how much I thought I knew that was either incorrect or full of holes. Emily is the real deal. Seriously. If you are planning a trip to Paris at any point in the future and you would like to take a comprehensive tour of Notre Dame Cathedral with the best of the best, Emily’s your girl. I’ll link all of her information in the show notes. Well, thank you. [Emily] It was so much fun having you guys here, and I’m excited for you to come back hopefully very soon. Even in the week, I mean, we only scratched the surface of what is Hunchback of Notre Dame themed and related here, so I still have to take you to the location of where the Court of Miracles was and some of the other places that the story took place, which I’m also very excited to do. When people call me Emily in Paris, I think it’s really funny because there’s a reason that I only call myself Emily of Notre Dame. So Patrick, Leslie, you can confirm this, but I could tell you anything you want to know about Notre Dame, but I can tell you nothing about anything else in Paris, unless it’s related to Hunchback and Victor Hugo. So when people say that I’m Emily in Paris, I’m like, well, I don’t know about that because really I don’t know anything else outside of specifically Notre Dame and anything related to the Hunchback. [Leslie] Well, good thing your business is Quasimodo and his cathedral tours and not Quasimodo and his city tours. [Emily] I do get asked sometimes if I do tours of other monuments or if I’m willing to give a tour of the Louvre or the Eiffel Tower. I do have to politely decline, not because I don’t want to, but because I know my expertise is exclusively Notre Dame and I would not want to pretend otherwise. [Patrick] Yeah, you don’t want to fall for the Dunning-Kruger effect, where you assume if you have a little knowledge about a subject, you actually think you know everything about a subject. [Emily] It’s interesting that you mentioned that term because I’m at Notre Dame almost every day, whether that’s in a professional capacity or just a personal capacity. I hear a lot of things that are completely incorrect by people who are advertising themselves as being an expert and there are some things that I just… I don’t know where they got this from. There have been several times where I’ve heard other tour guides tell their group that Quasimodo was a real person or Assassin’s Creed helped save Notre Dame. And by the way, neither of those things are true at all. So there are certainly moments that I hear things and I’m like, where did you get this information from? Did you actually bother looking beyond the front page of Google? [Patrick] Yeah, I graduated from the University of TikTok with a degree in misinformation. [Emily] I think the most absurd thing that I’ve heard is a guy telling their group that the firefighters saved Notre Dame by freezing the towers. I just could not comprehend where the person was getting this from. And mind you, this person was a native English speaker. They were wearing an American flag and I thought, oh my god. But the sentence before that was, you know, she had a photo of Notre Dame in front of her and she started by saying, well, there was a fire here in 2019 and something bad really happened. I’m not really sure what, but it was really bad. And I thought, oh my god. Oh, jeez. I want to clarify that I would never judge tourist number four for not necessarily having all the correct information, but if you are out here promoting yourself as being an expert and you get critical facts completely wrong, that’s where I get really frustrated. It was wild that completely unexpectedly I got invited to be on several different international news stations for the reopening. And it started out with AFP, which is a French news agency, and they’re not a news station, but they record all of this footage and report on various topics and then sell it to news stations who pick up this material. And it started out with, I was on one of the bridges just the week before the reopening. They were out here interviewing people for a few minutes at a time about their reaction to the reopening and what they thought and if they were going to visit. And of course, I told them that I’d moved here for Notre Dame and how excited I was for the reopening and how much I loved the story and I love the related stories. And they asked me, well, can we come back and film a longer segment with you? I said, sure. We met up a couple of days later and we filmed about a half day of footage. And that got picked up by various news stations. It was completely unexpected, but I ended up being asked to be on about 13 to 14 different news stations around the world, which was wild. I’m usually very camera shy, but I didn’t want to pass up an opportunity to talk about the reopening and how excited I was and how much I loved everything about Notre Dame and the Hunchback. And you were on a couple stations here in the U.S., if I’m not mistaken, right? Yes, you are correct. So it started out with an NBC article, which actually came from my activity on Reddit, through answering people’s questions about Notre Dame. But after that article was published, I believe it was the next day, I think it was like 9 a.m. the next day, I get a phone call and the person on the other end of the line is asking me, how fast can you make it to this location? Because we want to have you on the Today Show. So that was wild. I was not expecting that at all, but I ended up being on the national channel in Canada. So the CBC News and that one was live, which I almost peed my pants just saying. All the other ones that I did were pre-recorded out of the 13, 14, maybe 15 that I did across radio articles and videos. All of them were pre-recorded, except for the CBC National one. And that was a longer segment. So that was about 12 minutes. And I was terrified, but I didn’t want to pass up the opportunity to talk about how excited I was for the reopening and to talk about how much I loved all the work that everybody’s put into the cathedral over the years. [Leslie] Now, Emily, the first time you read Victor Hugo’s novel, Notre Dame de Paris, or as we know it in the English speaking world, The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Was that before or after you saw the Disney movie for the first time? [Emily] That’s a bit of a tricky question because I read a Young Readers edition before I watched a Disney movie. So that was actually my first introduction to the story as a whole. So in seventh grade, I was in French immersion. And one of the things that we had to do was a novel study on Victor Hugo’s novel. After we finished the novel study, the teacher introduced us to the musical, which really kickstarted my obsession. Then after that, I believe it was the 1939 film adaptation that I watched, followed by Disney. And after that, I went back and reread the full edition of Victor Hugo’s novel. [Leslie] So before and after, actually. During your initial reading experience, did you think to yourself, gosh, you know what this book needs? This book needs to be adapted into a G-rated animated musical. [Emily] To be completely honest, the first time I read it, I did not like it. But I think that also had to do with me not liking school as a whole. But no, not in any moment did I ever think to myself, oh, this would make a great Disney movie. [Leslie] Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame. What an odd concept. We dedicated the first five episodes of this podcast to a comprehensive exploration of Victor Hugo’s novel, and we know from that experience that the novel is not appropriate for children. I mean, there’s murder, flogging, stabbing, hanging, attempted sexual assault, and a partridge in a pear tree. So Pat, for today’s minute of history, would you mind answering the question thousands upon thousands of moviegoers have asked in the 30 years since this movie was released in theaters, whose idea was it to turn The Hunchback of Notre Dame by Victor Hugo into a Disney movie? [Patrick] The guy who was the CEO of the company when they made Chicken Little and Meet the Robinsons. [Leslie] Oh my gosh, Satan? [Patrick] Now, in the early 1990s, Disney was in something of a renaissance of success, both critically and financially. With movies like “Who Framed Roger Rabbit”, The Little Mermaid, and especially Beauty and the Beast, the company was on top of the world. Beauty and the Beast’s success is especially important because that was the first animated film nominated for Best Picture, and the studio was looking to recreate that success, both critically and financially. Beauty and the Beast was a hit with kids, but it was also a hit with adults. You know, Roger Ebert said it was one of his favorite films of the year. So the studio was looking to make new films that would have a greater appeal to adults, be a bit more mature and sophisticated, while also still appealing to their core demographic of children. But what sort of story could be adapted into a movie that would appeal to both kids and adults in that way, that could maybe even get another Best Picture nomination or, heaven forbid, even win? Well, the studio ended up finding their source in a bit of an unusual place, a comic book. Now David Staten, who was the Vice President of Creative Affairs at Disney, was a big fan of the comic book series “Classics Illustrated”, which ran from the 40s to the early 60s. This series adapted classic literature into comic book form, and issue 18 of Classics Illustrated adapted Victor Hugo’s Hunchback of Notre Dame into a graphic format. Staten was familiar with that comic, he owned multiple copies of it. Now while the story of Hugo’s novel is not exactly family-friendly, he found the characters archetypal enough that they almost resembled fairytale characters. You have a beautiful damsel, a knight in shining armor, and a hideous hero with a heart of gold. So Staten pitches the idea of adapting Victor Hugo’s gothic novel into a Disney animated musical to the head of Disney’s animation department, Jeffrey Katzenberg. And Katzenberg was an unusual character. He was a very powerful and prominent executive, and really spearheaded a lot of the animation revival that the studio had undergone. And among Katzenberg’s quirks as an was his focus on the screenwriter, a typically neglected role in the world of animation. Katzenberg invited a young writer who had been nominated for an Academy Award, Tab Murphy, to come to the studio to take a look at a few bits of source material the studio was looking to adapt. Among a few fairytale adaptations, as well as a retelling of the myth of Hercules, Katzenberg pitched Murphy the idea to adapt The Hunchback of Notre Dame. He passed over a copy of Victor Hugo’s novel and asked, “well, we’re trying to see if there’s a movie in this.” Now Tab Murphy did not have a background in animation either. He had had success in the 1980s co-writing “Gorillas in the Mist”, and was looking to launch more original works throughout the 90s. Hunchback appealed to him far more than any of the other topics that were pitched that day. Murphy had a bit of a personal connection to the story. Like many children of the baby boom generation, as we talked about during our episode on the film “Man of a Thousand Faces”, Murphy was a big fan of the horror films of the 1930s and 1940s. He watched many films, like “Dracula” and “Frankenstein”, re-aired on TV throughout the early 1960s and 70s. He was a big reader of “Famous Monsters of Filmland” magazine, and really resonated with the character of Quasimodo who, throughout the 20th century in American pop culture, was considered a monster movie character. Certainly to the baby boom generation, there were Quasimodo model kits, and stickers, and magazines. Yet Tab Murphy did not consider Quasimodo to be a purely horrific character. He empathized with the poor Hunchback. So Murphy agreed to adapt Victor Hugo’s novel into a story treatment, which you can think of as a plot synopsis. It’s not a full-length screenplay, just a vision of what the movie would look like. Kind of like a short story. A few changes Murphy made were to make Quasimodo a more sympathetic character than he was in Victor Hugo’s novel. Rather than being misanthropic, Quasimodo in this version would desire to go out there amongst the people. And there were also plenty of concessions to make the story more family-friendly. As had been done in earlier film adaptations, the character of Claude Frollo was secularized. In the novel, Claude Frollo was a priest. In Tab Murphy’s story treatment, Claude Frollo was changed into a judge, as had been done in the 1939 RKO film. In the early versions of the script, Phoebus was a bit awkward in romance. So Quasimodo would serve as Phoebus’s wingman, writing love poetry on his behalf. You can definitely see a lot of inspiration from one of the other great French stories of an ugly man, Cyrano de Bergerac. There are plenty other changes and concessions from the source material. The ending was made to be much happier, with Quasimodo and Esmeralda surviving the story. Quasimodo is given talking sidekicks, not just the few gargoyles, but also a talking bat named Bonaparte, stained glass windows, and even the bells were able to communicate by ringing, sort of like Lassie. While Tab Murphy would not be the only writer on the final screenplay, you have about a half dozen people who have their names officially credited, as well as all of the contributors from the story department, the animators, and the voice actors all lend their role to the story. Tab Murphy’s contributions in boiling down the source material to be more family friendly were significant enough to earn him a story by credit. But who would end up directing this new movie? Well, the same people who did Beauty and the Beast. So Jeffrey Katzenberg calls up those directors, Kirk Wise and Gary Trousdale, and tells them, “guys drop everything, you’re doing The Hunchback of Notre Dame.” Now at the time, they were working on a retelling of Orpheus and the Underworld, set in the ocean, with a humpback whale. Katzenberg also brought on Alan Menken, who had written the songs for Beauty and the Beast, The Little Mermaid, and Aladdin. The studio also brought on Stephen Schwartz to write the lyrics for the songs. And so with this crack team of excellent writers, animators, musicians, and directors, the film really entered production in 1994 and 1995. The film would use all sorts of revolutionary new technology, including recently developed CGI technology. The CGI was mostly used for the large crowd scenes, which are very difficult to animate by hand, and it was used extensively for special effects, such as smoke, fire, and snowflakes. Now I can go on and on about the production of this film, but we only have so much time. Let’s get into how the film itself actually turns out. Is Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame the true success the studio hoped for, or is it something else entirely? Well, we’ll get into it. But before then, Leslie, what is this movie about? [Leslie] I thought you’d never ask, Patrick. Our story takes place in medieval Paris. Puppeteer Clopin, voiced by Paul Kandel, tells a group of children the story of how Notre Dame’s mysterious bell ringer came to live in the cathedral. Twenty years ago, a Romani couple and their baby entered Paris under cover of night, but were intercepted and arrested by the wicked judge Claude Frollo, voiced by Tony Jay. The baby’s mother ran to Notre Dame and begged for sanctuary, but Claude Frollo snatched her child from her arms and kicked her down the stairs, killing her instantly. The archdeacon of Notre Dame, voiced by David Ogden Stiers, told Frollo the only way to earn God’s forgiveness was to care for the child as his own. Frollo raised the boy in the bell tower and named him Quasimodo, which means half-formed to reflect the boy’s deformity. Twenty years later, Quasimodo, voiced by Tom Hulse, dreams of leaving the bell tower and attending the annual Feast of Fools. Claude Frollo forbids it, telling Quasimodo he is merely protecting him from the wicked, cruel world. However, Quasimodo’s gargoyle friends, Victor, Hugo, and Laverne, voiced by Charles Kimbrough, Jason Alexander, and the late Mary Wicks, respectively, convince him to leave the bell tower and enjoy just one day out there. That sounds like a song! A misunderstanding at the festival leads Quasimodo to be crowned the King of Fools. However, the Parisian’s praise quickly turns to violence when he is tied to the pillory and pelted with produce, say that five times fast. The beautiful Romani dancer Esmeralda, voiced by Demi Moore, comes to Quasimodo’s aid and admonishes Frollo for his mistreatment not only of his adopted son, but of all marginalized people in Paris, especially the Romani. She vanishes in a cloud of smoke, leading Frollo to accuse her of witchcraft and order his new captain of the guard, Phoebus, voiced by Kevin to arrest her. Esmeralda claims sanctuary in Notre Dame, meaning she is safe from Frollo, but cannot leave the cathedral. Quasimodo, who has fallen in love with Esmeralda, helps her escape in secret. Meanwhile, Frollo has also become attracted to Esmeralda, and when he learns she has vanished from the cathedral, he vows to find her even if he has to burn down all of Paris. Phoebus gradually becomes disillusioned by Frollo’s violent pursuit of Esmeralda, and after finally refusing to follow Frollo’s orders, oh my gosh, say that five times fast, he is left to drown in the Seine. Esmeralda rescues Phoebus and brings him to Notre Dame, where she asks Quasimodo to give the wounded man shelter. Before Esmeralda leaves, she and Phoebus share a kiss, breaking Quasimodo’s heart. Frollo arrives at the bell tower to tell Quasimodo he has discovered the location of the Court of Miracles, the Romani’s secret hideout, and has plans to attack at dawn with a thousand men. Phoebus and Quasimodo team up to find the Court of Miracles and warn the Romani, but unbeknownst to them, Frollo and his soldiers have followed and all are arrested. The next day, Esmeralda is tied to a stake to be publicly executed for witchcraft. Frollo gives her one opportunity to save herself. “Choose me or the fire.” She spits in his face and he lights the fire meant to take her life, but Quasimodo swoops down from the bell tower, rescues Esmeralda, and claims sanctuary in the cathedral. Frollo orders his soldiers to break into the church by force, but Phoebus rallies the Parisians to fight back. This isn’t enough to keep Frollo from sneaking into the cathedral, and after attempting to kill both Quasimodo and Esmeralda, he falls to his death into a pit of boiling lead. As the sun rises, Phoebus and Esmeralda lead Quasimodo out of the cathedral and into the sunlight. The Parisians cheer his name and herald him as a hero, and the credits roll. My goodness, is that family-friendly enough for you? Talk about a G rating, my gosh. Just about every time I see a social media post about this movie, including posts I have made on our podcast’s social media accounts, invariably I’ll see some kind of comment on that post along the lines of, oh, but have you read the book this movie is based off of? The book is completely different. The book has nothing to do with the movie. I disagree. I think Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame is certainly a loose adaptation of Victor Hugo’s novel, certainly the loosest adaptation we’ve covered on this podcast so far, but it is still an adaptation. There are elements of Hugo’s novel that are just not appropriate for a G-rated film or even a PG-rated film, no matter where you see it in the world, and the Disney movie does retain those elements. It just presents them in a toned-down way. For example, we’re all familiar with the scene in Hugo’s novel where Quasimodo is whipped. What is the purpose of the whipping? The purpose of the whipping is to publicly humiliate Quasimodo. Now, we can’t include whipping in a G-rated movie or probably even a PG-rated movie, but we can still convey the idea that Quasimodo is being publicly humiliated by pelting him with produce. So it is still an adaptation of Victor Hugo’s novel, and it’s still presenting elements from Victor Hugo’s novel, just in some cases in a toned-down way. A lot of audience members had a problem with that. Hugo scholars and biographers have had a problem with that. I mean, who was it? Graham Robb, Hugo’s definitive English-language biographer, who said, and I think I’m quoting this verbatim, “The Hunchback of Notre Dame is a Disney cartoon in which a dorsally-challenged teenager called Quasi overcomes his appalling handicap of shyness.” I would agree with that to some extent, but I don’t think this film is as far removed from its source material as a lot of people think it is. [Patrick] Yeah, while this is probably the darkest of all of the Disney animated films, I don’t think it goes too far. I think it’s still pretty appropriate to show to kids. Yes, you have an old man sniffing a young woman’s hair. Yes, you have public humiliation and abuse. Yes, you have a guy getting shot in the arm with an arrow. Yeah, you got a little bit of genocide. All right, all right. You have a young woman who gets her skull cracked open in the opening scene, and then a baby almost gets drowned, but it’s still framed in a fairly light-hearted way. It’s a pretty reasonable compromise. I mean, this is Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame, after all. I’m not a big Disney person, but even I can defend this multinational corporation from their charge of defiling Hugo’s source material, because, well, they certainly weren’t the first to defile it, and nor would they be the last. [Emily] I think it’s also very dependent on the kids themselves. I find that there are some kids that are terrified of the movie, and there are other kids that are not, and they fall in love with it immediately. [Patrick] Well, Jason Alexander thought the movie was too intense for his kids. When the movie was being released, Jason Alexander went to the press and said, “hey, Disney is marketing this movie like it’s for all ages, like it’s the Ringling Brothers Circus. No, I will not be taking my four-year-old to see this.” I think most people would be all right, you know, six and up, I think. The idea of Quasimodo as a Disney hero is pretty different. Yeah, you had the Beast in Beauty and the Beast, but he turns into a handsome guy at the end. Although, if I’m being honest with you, I think the human version of the Beast is a lot more terrifying and hideous than the monster version. [Leslie] Say it louder for the people in the back. [Patrick] In this version, Quasimodo is not enchanted, he’s not a supernatural character, he’s a person with a disability, right? And that’s very different than your typical Disney hero. I remember when the Internet Movie Database, IMDB, used to have forums. People would reminisce about this movie and their experience watching it when it came out. And there was one commenter that mentioned, and I’ll never forget this, their mom was very upset when the movie came out. And their mom said to them, why would anybody want a deformed doll? Because Disney movies are made to sell merchandise, right? Dolls, action figures, stained glass kits, they made merchandise for every single possible item you can imagine in this movie. [Emily] The person that wrote that IMDB comment about nobody wanting a figurine of Quasimodo, I mean, who are they? Because like, I just want to talk. I have at least four stuffies here of Quasimodo just beside me right here. So that’s not including the other ones in my collection. [Leslie] So yeah, whoever you are, when I catch you in the street, it’s going down. Yeah, like, I just want to talk. Clearly that person never saw the movie because that’s antithetical to the movie’s entire message. We have Clopin proposing a question to the audience at the beginning and at the end of the movie, who is the monster and who is the man? Or in a variation, what makes a monster and what makes a man? So yeah, that’s the crux of the entire film. I really appreciate that framing. I have my own problems with the character of Clopin and we can get into that now, but I like that this entire film and the events that transpire within it are framed to the audience as a question. You know, we’re going to present you with the events of this story and it’s up to you to decide who is the monster and who is the man. I love that. [Patrick] Quasimodo is a very different character, but I think that’s a good thing. I mean, who likes the male protagonist in any Disney movie? Does the prince from Snow White even have a name? Quasimodo has a name and he has a personality. He’s such a sweet, soft, gentle character that you really can’t help but fall in love with him. There are still shades of Hugo’s character. You know, he’s very sad and self-loathing, but he is a bit more soft around the edges. I mean, literally, he’s very round and cuddly. You know, very appropriate for a future stuffed animal. [Leslie] Yeah, this is the most different Quasimodo we’ve seen so far in this podcast’s life. Hugo’s Quasimodo, he doesn’t want to go out there. He has absolutely no desire to integrate himself into society. He hates the general populace. When I was initially doing my research into this movie’s source material, after the first time I watched it, and of course, just like you guys, became obsessed, I was shocked to learn that Hugo’s Quasimodo is not confined to the bell tower. He can leave Notre Dame whenever he wants, he just chooses not to because he is so hated by the general populace that he, as Hugo writes, picked up the weapon with which he had been wounded, that weapon being hatred. He scorns the Parisians, he has become the monster that everyone thinks he is, and he still has a deep well of humanity within him in regards to his relationship to the cathedral, but we don’t really get to see that humanity come out in full force until he falls in love with Esmeralda and commits to protecting her, whereas in the Disney movie, the first time we see Quasimodo, as an adult that is, he is helping a little baby bird learn how to fly. He is this movie’s Disney princess, talking to animals, just being very gentle and kind. There are those moments of brutishness, but generally this is a character who chooses gentleness and kindness at every opportunity. Just a very different take on Hugo’s character, but one I don’t dislike. [Patrick] I think a lot of that is helped out by Tom Hulce’s performance. He is not a superstar. If this movie was made in a post-Shrek world, they probably would have cast a big celebrity. You have a big celebrity with Demi Moore, who is fairly popular, and Kevin Kline, playing Esmeralda and Phoebus respectively, but Tom Hulce was not a big popular actor, and a lot of popular actors did audition for the role. Meatloaf was almost cast as Quasimodo. Mandy Patinkin was almost cast as Quasimodo, but his audition was so disastrous and he was so mean to Stephen Schwartz that that absolutely did not happen. Tom Hulce is beloved for his role as Amadeus in the movie “Amadeus”, but he’s not even the main character of that movie. Aside from Amadeus, he appeared in supporting roles in the 70s, 80s, and into the early 90s. He’s the main character in “Animal House”, but nobody remembers that because he’s not John Belushi. The point is, Tom Hulce is not a big celebrity, but he has a very unique voice, very gentle, very boyish. One thing that Disney’s adaptation does right, that I don’t think any other adaptation really did up to this point, was portray Quasimodo as a young person. In the novel, he’s 19 going on 20. Here, Quasimodo is portrayed as 20 years old, and Tom Hulce’s boyish performance really sells that. Yeah, Tom Hulce is not a Hollywood superstar, and boy is he also not a Broadway singer. [Leslie] Oh, come on. When I first saw this movie, I did not have a problem with Tom Hulce’s vocal performance. He is not a singer, but I don’t think he has to be to sell that performance. Of course, I first watched this movie before I earned a vocal performance degree, and now that I have the training to diagnose whether someone is a trained singer just by listening to their voice, oh god, does Tom Hulce really lean into those diphthongs? If I were in their skin, I’d treasure! Still makes me laugh. [Emily] But I think that adds to Quasimodo’s character, though. I like that it isn’t 100% vocally technically correct in that sense. [Leslie] Yeah, he’s not getting singing lessons up in that tower. He’s not talking to anyone aside from Claude Frollo. [Patrick] Hey, he’s got those gargoyles played by Seinfeld’s own Jason Alexander. [Emily] Which are actually not gargoyles, but we’ll get to that in another segment. For me personally, Quasimodo was the reason that I fell in love with this movie, and he was the reason I fell in love with the story as a whole as well, but specifically the Disney adaptation really was Tom Hulce’s performance and his singing voice. I love his voice, and I love his performance, and when I went to Disney World for the first time in 2009, I actually bought Tom Hulce’s autograph. [Leslie] Is that part of your over-thousand-strong collection of Hunchback merch? It is. [Emily] Unfortunately, that one’s still back in Canada, but it is a beautiful green-framed image of Quasimodo just before he starts singing out there, and then there is the bottom that is signed by Tom Hulce. [Leslie] Quasimodo was Tom Hulce’s final role as an actor before he retired from the profession and transitioned into stage producing full-time. So, what a beautiful note to bow out from your career on. I’m going to voice the lead role in a Disney animated film, and then I’m done. I think that’s beautiful. [Patrick] All right, Leslie, I’m kind of obsessed with you comparing Quasimodo to a Disney princess because he really is. It’s one thing that he’s talking to animals and has his I Want song and out there. He has an evil stepmother with Frollo. Isn’t that who Frollo is? He’s the evil stepmother from Cinderella. [Leslie] Or in this case, the evil adoptive father who lies to his son about the way that his mother died. Oh my gosh. That’s pretty intense, not gonna lie. Speaking of Quasimodo’s mother’s death, to insert a quick detail here, have you guys noticed that Quasimodo’s mother dies in this movie the same way that Esmeralda’s mother dies in Victor Hugo’s novel? They both are clinging on to their children while their children are being torn from their grasp. They are both wrenched from their children and kicked down some stairs and snap their necks on impact. So, like I said, presenting elements from Victor Hugo’s novel just may be in a different context. Now, going back to my experience with that movie, as I’ve mentioned on this podcast before, this was my first introduction to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. Before I saw this movie, I had no idea what The Hunchback of Notre Dame was or even who Victor Hugo was. But the first time I researched the movie’s source material, I was astounded to learn that in Victor Hugo’s novel, Claude Frollo is the Archdeacon of Notre Dame. He doesn’t have a position within the legislature or the judicial system. He is running the show in Notre Dame as a clergyman. And, listener, if you’ve listened to any of our previous episodes, you know that the idea of Claude Frollo being a lawman or a judge or a justice did not originate with Disney. That goes back about 160 years before this movie came out. The first opera adapted from Hugo’s novel we covered on this podcast. It’s an opera called “La Esmeralda”, which premiered at the Paris Opera in 1836. And the Paris Opera was run by the French government. And the French government’s censorship committee thought it would be a bad look on the government if an opera performed at their opera house had an antagonist that was a clergyman. So they forced Victor Hugo, who was working on the opera, that’s the only, as far as I know, the only adaptation of Victor Hugo’s novel that Victor Hugo himself worked on, they forced Victor Hugo to change his character’s profession from a priest to an alderman or a magistrate. And Victor Hugo was not happy about it, but he did it anyway. And since then, several adaptations have made that same decision, either because of external codes like the Hays Code, or because they just don’t want to deal with the implication that a priest could be lusting after a teenage girl. We saw that in Universal’s Hunchback, we saw that in RKO’s Hunchback from 1939, and we see it here. [Patrick] Frollo in the novel wishes he had the powers that he has in this movie. In the novel, he tries to get the Romani banned from the square before Notre Dame and the Place du Parvis, and no one follows the rules. You know, people disrespect him in the novel, little kids make fun of him, old ladies make fun of him. Yeah, only Quasimodo thinks that Claude Frollo’s a cool guy in Victor Hugo’s story. But here, even more so than in the 1939 Hollywood film, Frollo is all powerful. He’s like the dictator of Paris. He is hell-bent on destroying the Romani, literally crushing them like ants. [Emily] You get it, Phoebus? It’s a metaphor! Although I do think that Disney’s Claude Frollo is a great Disney villain, I also think that’s very much over-exaggerated, and Disney makes him out to be a bigger villain than he is in the novel. One of my favorite parts of my tour is talking about the origin story of Quasimodo and his name, and of course I do make a point to note that Quasimodo was not based off a real person, but the origin of his name does come from something real. Although I do love the song The Bells of Notre Dame and how it talks about Quasimodo’s adoption, but it is framed in a negative way, in the sense that Claude Frollo was forced to adopt Quasimodo as punishment for murdering his mom. In the novel, Claude Frollo doesn’t adopt Quasimodo out of force or out of any sort of punishment, he does adopt Quasimodo on his own, and he does choose the name Quasimodo, but not because of his deformity or his physical appearance, but because he was adopted on the second Sunday of Easter, which just so happens to be Quasimodo Sunday. And Quasimodo Sunday is something that is still celebrated today, so the most recent Quasimodo Sunday was on April 12th, and the name of the day itself comes from the fact that Quasi and Modo are the first two words of the Gregorian chants to the entrance of mass on that particular day. [Patrick] Okay, Disney’s Frollo might be more evil than the version from the book, but I’m perfectly fine with that. I love a good bad guy, and he is the baddest of the bad. I mean, when was the last time we had a real bad guy in a Disney movie? They’re always these twist villains that nobody cares about or they’re misunderstood. No, bring back the guy in the evil cloak who’s manipulating people and lusting after young women and committing genocide. Uh, who is the bad guy in Wish? I don’t care. No one cares. Nobody saw that movie. [Emily] I miss Disney villains. I miss when Disney villains used to be so dark and just pure evil. They don’t make them like they used to. [Patrick] They don’t animate them like they used to. I love the way that Claude Frollo is animated. The supervising animator on him was the great Kathy Zielinski, who really emphasized Frollo’s hands like these very active spidery like appendages, you know, very inspired by von Eyck and other late medieval early renaissance artists. [Leslie] Didn’t Kathy Zielinski also make Frollo’s hat in real life just so she could walk around wearing it and take photos of herself in it just to see how it would move to serve as a reference? [Patrick] But apparently she made the hat really, really big and that’s why Frollo’s hat is like gigantic in this movie. It’s the size of a pizza. [Leslie] We can’t talk about Judge Claude Frollo without talking about Tony Jay’s vocal performance. Oh my goodness. This was not his first experience working with Disney. Those of you who have seen Beauty and the Beast probably recognized him as the asylum keeper from that movie, but he just has such a deep spine-chilling bass voice that cuts right through you. Seriously, well done to Tony Jay. I believe that in an interview about his role, he called voice acting in a Disney movie a bid at immortality. He certainly made himself immortal with this role. He was the perfect choice to play Claude Frollo. [Patrick] Now Leslie, you know him as the random bad guy that’s in two seconds of Beauty and the Beast. I knew him as the bad guy in “Tom and Jerry: The Movie”. [Emily] I love that movie. [Patrick] He’s the one guy that says, we’ve got to have money. [Leslie] He’s the white Keith David in that he has a very deep voice that you could recognize in anything. And he was in anything. [Patrick] Although this movie wasn’t nearly as controversial as you think it would be. There are rumors that religious groups were very outraged by the film and did mass protests. That isn’t really true. Certain evangelical Christian organizations in the United States were very concerned about the movie when it came out, but there were no large-scale protests. They were far more concerned with alleged subliminal messages in Disney videotapes. Oh, and giving gay employees health insurance. [Emily] Well, and there was a whole article that accused Out There as being this song about this closeted gay person and how it was a coming out song. And this article is just completely absurd. [Leslie] Yeah. I bet it didn’t help that Tom Hulse is a gay man. No, probably not. [Patrick] But there actually were some conservative groups that had a much more positive reaction to the film. You know, mothers, religious groups that were concerned that this would be an inappropriate film or an anti-religious film, but actually found it to be a very positive experience for their children. They didn’t think it went too far, even when you have songs about hellfire and damnation. There was anxiety about this movie being controversial, but it really wasn’t controversial. I think that’s mostly because this movie was not the mega hit that the Disney company thought it would be. It was not another billion-dollar Lion King success. It did okay, but it wasn’t something that was going to blow the world up or burn the cathedral down. [Leslie] Oh, too soon, baby. Too soon. Yeah, Disney was, as you mentioned in the Minute of History, Patrick, really focused on the fact that Beauty and the Beast earned a Best Picture nomination at the Oscars, and they really, really wanted to turn that into a trend, and they thought that this movie would do it. Based on internal footage of this film’s creative team that I’ve seen, they really, really believed in this movie. I mean, they thought it was going to be the next big thing. They absolutely loved working on it. [Patrick] Yeah, Quasimodo’s life in the bell tower isn’t great, but he does have a couple of friends up there. He’s got three gargoyle pals, Victor, Hugo, and Laverne. I don’t know why the last one is named Laverne. Okay, Victor and Hugo, they’re named after Victor Hugo, the author of Notre Dame de Paris. Where the hell do you get Laverne? Victor Hugo even had a feminine middle name, so it’s not just because they have a female gargoyle. You could have had Victor, Hugo, and Marie, or if you wanted it to be more of like an old lady name, Mary, or Marietta, or Marianne. What is going on with the elderly gargoyle? [Emily] So, there is a story about this. So, apparently, they wanted a more funny name for the third gargoyle, so it was Kirk Wise that decided on the name Laverne, and he named Laverne after Laverne of the Andrew Sisters, which is a trio singing group, and he thought that was the funniest name of the three, so that’s why he chose Laverne. I also agree that Marie would have been the more cohesive choice for the third gargoyle, being Victor, Marie, Hugo, especially after they changed that third gargoyle from being a young and spirited one to being an older and wiser gargoyle. So, I think that Marie would have fit within those characteristics better than Laverne, but I’m curious to ask the team this when we have our 30th anniversary celebration. [Leslie] And a very famous singer was almost cast in that role, right, Patrick? [Patrick] Oh, yeah. It was going to be Cyndi Lauper, who dreamed of being in a Disney movie her whole life and finally had a chance. She was cast. It was announced to the press and everything, but the character ended up being reworked. So, the character was reconceived to be an older, wiser, almost grandmotherly figure to Quasimodo. I actually think this was a better choice because she serves as more of a contrast to the other gargoyles who kind of bicker amongst themselves. And speaking of changes to the gargoyles, they were originally named after the actors who played Quasimodo in older Hollywood movies, which I appreciate as a film history fan. But midway through production, they were changed out of fear of lawsuits, which from a legal perspective, I don’t understand how you could get sued by doing a little homage parody like that. But hey, Disney lawyers are the most powerful people on Earth. I would tend to obey them. And speaking of obedience, I feel like it is a law that all Hunchback of Notre Dame fans must obey when they talk about this movie. It’s that, oh, this movie is so dark and so good, but the gargoyle characters are annoying. And when I was a kid, I thought that they were annoying. I still think that they can often be annoying. But as I’ve grown older and wiser, perhaps like Laverne, I have become a bit more sympathetic to their role in the story. I mean, you do need somebody for Quasimodo to talk to after a while. He can’t just be in the bell tower frowning all the time. [Leslie] I know I’m in the minority, but I actually don’t hate the gargoyles. Yeah, I don’t hate them, if for no other reason than they serve a very strong functional purpose. There is a fan edit of this movie that makes the rounds on social media every couple years. It’s Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame, where everything is exactly the same, except the gargoyles have been cut from the movie. And I’ve heard a lot of people within the fan community argue that this makes the movie better. I disagree. Quasimodo needs somebody to talk to who isn’t Claude Frollo. We need to be able to distinguish this character’s personality, his I want, I want to go out there, I want to spend just one day in society among the people I’ve observed from my bell tower my whole life. He needs somebody to articulate that goal too. And yeah, you can make an argument that the gargoyles are not the best vessels for that purpose. But they do serve a very important purpose in the story. I mean, why does just about every Disney protagonist have a sidekick? You know, they need somebody to talk to so the audience can get to know who they are and what they want. [Emily] It’s funny that you mentioned that because about two years ago when I was first planning the 30th anniversary celebration, I was talking to Gary Trousdale and the gargoyles came up as a topic. He actually mentioned exactly what you’re referencing. And he said that in the book, Quasimodo talks to the stone gargoyles. So we thought, well, come on, this is Disney. Of course they talk back. [Patrick] My problem is that they’re not very funny. I don’t find myself laughing at the gargoyles the way you would for, I don’t know, any other Disney sidekick like Gilbert Gottfried from Aladdin. I think that’s his actual name, or John Q. Teacup from Beauty and the Beast. [Leslie] Jason Alexander is a good actor. I mean, I grew up watching Seinfeld because my parents just didn’t think that I would understand all the sexual references and jokes in that show. I absolutely did. But even I have to admit, he’s no Robin Williams as the genie. [Emily] I know I’m in the minority, but I actually found the gargoyles quite funny when I first watched the movie. And at the time when I was first getting obsessed with it, I was driving everybody around me crazy. I mean, now they’re just used to it. But I have this really distinct memory that I was sitting at the kitchen table one day and I was thinking about the scene with Hugo and Victor at the beginning of the movie. And they’re saying, like, oh man, I thought he’d never leave. I’ll be spitting feathers for a week. Well, that’s what you get for sleeping with your mouth open. And I guess I laughed out loud because my mom came over and asked me, are you thinking about that movie again? [Leslie] So I have a question for both of you. And I’ll preface this question with a little bit of context. In January of 2019, Disney announced that they are developing a live action remake of their version of The Hunchback of Notre Dame. This would be the next in a series of live action remakes of their animated films that they’ve been releasing since the 2010s, including Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, the upcoming Moana, etc. Josh Gad was announced as the producer, rumored to be playing Quasimodo. The playwright David Henry Huang was announced as the writer. It was announced that Alan Menken and Stephen Schwartz would be returning to work on the music. Then in March of 2023, Josh Gad made an Instagram post about the project with the following caption. And I have it written down here. “Love that you guys all want this. We do too. The script is one of the best I have read and hopefully the powers that be will see this love and let us make the live action adaptation the original animated film deserves.” Then in May of 2023, so just a couple months later, Alan Menken sat down for an interview with comicbook.com where he was asked if this movie was still being made. And he replied, “I have no idea.” It’s a tough one because the Hunchback movie, Hunchback Story, involves a lot of real, real issues that are important issues and should be explored to be discussed. And there has to be an agreement about how we deal with those issues. You know, do we do a Hunchback without Hellfire? I don’t think so. So it sits in this limbo right now. Two years go by, we don’t get any more information. Then in February of 2025, Alan Menken gives an interview to the London Standard where he’s asked about this live action remake again. And he basically confirms that it’s on ice. And he says, it gets a little complicated because it’s Disney’s Hunchback of Notre Dame. And let’s face it, “it’s meaty material.” It deals with very heavy and profound themes, but Disney, they walk a line. The challenge is, how can we deal with those themes of the inner obsession that Frollo has both as a man of the church and also obsession with this gypsy? How do we deal with this sense of discrimination against the gypsies, Romani people? How do we deal with the revulsion that people feel towards this Hunchback? If we’re going to soft pedal that, then what’s the point? I wouldn’t bet against it happening at some point. Life is an ever-shifting picture, as we see in the world right now. So that all having been said, my question for each of you, do you think it is a good idea for Disney to adapt their version of the Hunchback of Notre Dame into a live action movie? [Patrick] No, because I’ve seen a few of those other live action Disney movies. God, when I was in middle school, they made us watch the 2010 Tim Burton version of “Alice in Wonderland”. It wasn’t even an adaptation of Alice in Wonderland. I just was so bewildered because there were rock monsters, and at the end, Johnny Depp as the Mad Hatter, who’s the main character, starts voguing or something. From everything I’ve heard, these live action remakes really aren’t any good, so why would Hunchback be any better? Especially when, come on, let’s face it, they’re not going to hire thousands of extras for those crowd scenes. It’s going to be a bunch of green screen nonsense. But hey, I do at least appreciate the sentiment that, if you can’t tackle the themes properly, you shouldn’t even bother to do it. But of course, the real reason is probably money related, because I think a few of those movies did end up flopping, the exception of the recent live action “Lilo & Stitch”, which I’m sure made about 8.7 bajillion dollars. [Emily] In a perfect world, a live action version could be great, with the operative word in that sentence being could, because in reality, I think a live action version would end up being pretty terrible. The existing animated Disney movie wouldn’t be allowed to be made today in the same way that it was made in 1996. It’s already a very condensed adaptation of the original storyline, and people already have issues with how dark it is, which is totally fine, that’s their personal opinion, and yes, of course, it is a very dark story with very heavy themes. However, the story of The Hunchback of Notre Dame and Notre Dame de Paris does have very mature themes, topics, characters, no matter what. And unfortunately, I feel like the world’s media literacy skills are rather lacking. And I feel like with the mentality of how the world views things right now when it comes to media, like storytelling, casting, etc., I don’t think there’s really a way to tell the story freely or truthfully, even a Disney-fied version. Many people who are in support of a live action version say, well, it’s a story that needs to be told now with everything that’s going on in the world. Sure, but Disney wouldn’t actually be allowed to tell that story in the way that those people want it to be told. Disney would condense and simplify it even more than it already is, and I feel like they would also put some kind of, like, modern, family-friendly twist on it. And I think they would also cast a lot of big-name actors just for the sake of marketing, which, to me, if they were to actually do a live action, I want actors who are genuinely right for their roles and who would do the characters justice. Especially if they’re going to do a musical version, I want actors who have musical theater experience and who can carry the songs the way they’re supposed to be sung, not actors who occasionally sing pop songs, and certainly not actors who they’d have to auto-tune all their songs. Like, have you guys seen the live action Beauty and the Beast? [Leslie] Emma Watson is a good choice for Belle on paper. In practice, absolutely not. I don’t want an actor who can crank out a catchy pop song that is auto-tuned within an inch of its life. I want singing actors. I want actors who have cut their teeth on Broadway, who can genuinely handle this material. And that’s why I think the rumor, and again, this was never confirmed, the rumor that Josh Gad was in talks to play Quasimodo is very interesting to me because he is a musical theater actor. He has been on Broadway multiple times. He would not be the obvious pick for Quasimodo, I wouldn’t think. You know, he was Elder Cunningham in “The Book of Mormon” on Broadway. You know, I would think if he would be cast as any character in a straight remake of Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame, he would be like a gargoyle, probably the Jason Alexander character. [Patrick] Wait a minute, wouldn’t Josh Gad be perfect casting? He wouldn’t be the first fat gay guy to play Quasimodo. I mean, look at Charles Laughton. [Leslie] Josh Gad has a wife and two daughters. [Patrick] Oh, what? He’s not gay? How is that allowed? [Emily] What do you mean, how is that allowed? [Patrick] That was gonna be a zinger line. [Emily] I feel like if there was going to be a live action version, I would want an actor who could play a 20-year-old realistically. [Leslie] Yeah, I totally agree. Josh Gad is in his 40s. And of course, Tom Hulse was not a 20-year-old when he played Quasimodo, but he didn’t have to be because he was exclusively providing his voice in isolation. He did not look 20 when he played that role. Absolutely not. [Patrick] I’m not overly familiar with Mr. Gad’s oeuvre, but I think he would do an okay job as Quasimodo. He’s got an interesting look about him. And when you put all that monster makeup on him, assuming Disney would actually have practical prosthetic makeup for Quasimodo instead of doing some cheap CGI abomination, I think the age isn’t as big of a deal. You can kind of get away with that just through makeup compared to say, I don’t know, you look at movies like Grease or Carrie, like these teenage movies from the 1970s that have these elderly 35-year-olds playing teenagers. It’s unbelievable. But when you have somebody with layers of grease, paint and makeup, it’s a little more forgivable in my opinion. [Emily] But I feel like his voice itself doesn’t really lend itself to Quasimodo very well. I feel like it needs to be a lighter and more youthful voice in my opinion. And I feel like the backlash of the actors playing so much younger is so much stronger now. People are going to be angry about everything. And while I understand certain sides, I just don’t have the patience to deal with this. Like, as you’d mentioned earlier, Punchback of Notre Dame as a story does have a lot of dark and intense themes regardless. So I feel like, as Alan Menken mentioned himself, if we’re not going to do this justice, what’s the point? [Leslie] Even outside of a political, partisan, ideological context. I think right now, speaking as an American, Americans, specifically American parents, are too sensitive to be retold this story the way it deserves to be retold. With an older man lusting after a teenage girl, and an entire ethnicity being driven out of a city, and a disabled person being the target of intense discrimination and prejudice, I don’t think that’s the kind of story this particular generation of parents is willing to expose their children to. Assuming that Disney does remake this movie and honor the animated film’s PG or G rating and gear it toward a younger audience. Earlier this episode we talked about how Disney hasn’t had a really threatening, terrifying villain in a very long time. I think that’s because Disney knows how militant and overprotective today’s generation of parents are. They know that if they released any of their animated classics today, all of these parenting Facebook groups would be in flames. Oh, boycott the Walt Disney Company, they’re trying to traumatize our children, how dare they release an animated movie in which, I don’t know, a teenage girl is poisoned by her stepmother, or a boy watches his father get trampled to death, or the villain dies by hanging and we see the shadow of his dead body on the screen, or a disabled person is tied up and stripped and pelted with vegetables. I think Disney is too conscious of that. So, like you said, Emily, if they did remake this movie today, it would be such a milquetoast, sanitized take on the story that we probably wouldn’t even recognize it as an adaptation of Victor Hugo’s novel, and if that’s the movie we would get, I say let it die, let it die, let it shrivel up and die. But hey, as Alan Menken said, things change, hope springs eternal, the world has changed, maybe in a couple of years it’ll change right back, and the world will be ready to be retold this story by a major movie studio again. I mean, this movie that we’re talking about, Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame, was the last feature film adaptation of Victor Hugo’s novel. I mean, they used to come out every, what, 15 to 20 years? It’s been 30 years, guys. [Emily] Yeah, I feel like people just have a hard time reading something, watching something, and looking at a character who is a villain or an antagonist in a story and realizing that that author or that producer or whoever created that is not necessarily promoting those qualities. That person is a villain in the story for a reason. I feel like there’s a lot less of these really complex multi-dimensional characters nowadays because people are too afraid to create them in fear of backlash that they’re going to receive, that we have to soften things, and everything Disney comes back to money. I think that they’re too afraid of the financial implications and the backlash that they might get if they do release something that is much darker than how they used to. Well, to be honest, I feel like another reason why I don’t want a live-action adaptation is because I will never financially recover from that, even if it’s crap. I saw “Dear Evan Hansen” in theaters 15 times, I saw “Hugo” in theaters 12 times, I saw “How to Train Your Dragon 2” in theaters 8 times. I don’t know what the limit is going to be for Hunchback, whether that’s Disney or not. However, there is one live-action adaptation that I’d actually be excited for, and that’s a non-Disney high-quality period film that follows the plot and the characters of Victor Hugo’s novel and is produced by A24. One of the things that I love about A24 is how bold their films are. I don’t think they’re afraid to take risks. I think that they do value the original creativity enough. They would be able to tell the story in a truthful and authentic way. [Leslie] It’s also worth mentioning that the role of Esmeralda has never been played by an ethnically Romani actress in any film adaptation of Victor Hugo’s novel. Of course, in Victor Hugo’s novel, Esmeralda is not ethnically Romani, she is culturally Romani, but we meet her mother in that novel, and her mother is a white French woman. But most adaptations of Victor Hugo’s novel have cut that subplot and just have made Esmeralda’s ethnicity match her cultural identity. So it would be really cool to finally get a film adaptation of that novel where Esmeralda is played by an ethnically Romani actress just to bring a degree of authenticity to the character. [Patrick] Yeah, she’s been played by just about every ethnicity and race but a Romani woman. I mean off the top of my head I can think British, Irish, Israeli, Mexican, Italian, like anything but Romani. [Emily] But that means we have to take the same casting considerations for Clopin as well. That is one of my biggest issues with the stage musical is that everybody is so concerned about Esmeralda’s casting, which fair enough, but nobody seems to have the same concerns for Clopin’s casting. [Leslie] No, I completely agree. It’s also worth mentioning that in Victor Hugo’s novel, Clopin is not Romani either. In that novel, there are three kings of the Court of Miracles. There is a king of the Romani, it’s not Clopin. Clopin is the king of the beggars, I believe. [Patrick] And the leader of the Romani is Mathias Hungadi Spicali. [Leslie] Yeah, let’s talk about Clopin as he appears in Disney’s Hunchback. Because like Quasimodo, this is a very different version of Clopin than any of the ones we’ve seen in the adaptations we’ve covered so far on this podcast. As I just said in Victor Hugo’s novel, he is one of the three kings of the Court of Miracles, not the king of the Romani. He has no relation to Esmeralda, but he does lead the siege on Notre Dame. And while he’s doing that, he refers to Esmeralda as a sister. I don’t think that implies any biological relation. I think he’s just referring to her as a sister as he would refer to any woman among the Court of Miracles women. In Universal’s movie released in 1923, Clopin is the king of the beggars. He’s referred to as Paris’s uncrowned monarch, and he is Esmeralda’s adopted father. And it’s really sweet to see him be a little overprotective papa, especially after Esmeralda falls in love with Phoebus in that movie. And just like in the book, in that movie, Clopin dies during the siege on Notre Dame. RKO has a very similar take on the character. Not only is he the king of the beggars, but he is also a veteran of the Hundred Years War. No relation to Esmeralda, but he does launch the siege on Notre Dame, and he does die in the siege on Notre Dame. This Clopin is completely different. He is both an active character within the story, and the narrator of the story breaking the fourth wall to explain elements to the audience. To, for example, narrate how Quasimodo came to live in the bell tower, and to pose the question to the audience, who is the monster and who is the man? Kind of like the leading player in the musical “Pippin”, or the emcee in the musical “Cabaret”, which I’m fine with. I think it’s fine to have a character who is both outside of the story looking in, who can easily step back into the story. My problem with this Clopin is, who is he? What is his role? What is his standing within the Court of Miracles? Because we see him in the beginning of the movie as just a regular street puppeteer. Then we see him as the master of ceremonies at the Festival of Fools. Okay, sure. Then we see him in the Court of Miracles putting Phoebus and Quasimodo up to be executed, and his ability to just snap his fingers and decide who gets to live and who gets to die, that implies a certain degree of authority within the Court. But we still don’t know who this guy is. Is he just some random guy who has been in the Court of Miracles for a while and has earned a ton of respect from the other people there? Is he the king of the Court of Miracles? Is he the leader? Is he like the jester of the Court of Miracles? Who is this guy? [Patrick] I think this guy is the product of this movie having six screenwriters and many other story contributors through the animation department, the producers, the directors, the voice actors. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. Technically, if you look at all the publicity material for this movie, Clopin is the king of the Romani and a master of ceremonies, but it’s not really clear what his role is. He just kind of shows up at various points. He sings most of the songs in this movie, but he has no real dialogue that allows the audience to get a sense of who he is as a person and what his role in the story is. He just kind of helps other people along and while this character is very entertaining and the voice actor, Paul Kandel, does a good job, I really don’t know who he is either. I think it’s a matter of the filmmakers wrote and rewrote scenes with that character over and over again, as one does when they’re making a $100 million Disney movie in the 90s. And eventually, kind of like when you repeat the same word over and over again, how it starts to sound like gibberish, the people working on the movie just kind of assumed that they knew who Clopin was without really actually establishing it in the movie as it existed in the various revisions. [Leslie] I do think he is a very fun character. I do have a good time every time he comes on screen. I know that I’m going to get a fun song, I’m going to get some lyrical genius from Stephen Schwartz, but outside of just having a good time with this character, I would really like to know more about who he is and what his position within this world is. [Patrick] He was the face of most of the marketing. [Leslie] Most of the marketing was focused on the Festival of Fools scene. Oh, come on and join the party. Yeah, a ton of merchandise was made for this movie in general, but specifically in regards to Clopin’s character. And listener, we have planned an entire episode dedicated to this film’s merchandising campaign because you could argue that it was one of the least successful merchandising campaigns for a movie of all time. And I am really excited to talk about that with these two lovely people right here. [Patrick] We gotta talk about the Hunchback of Notre Dame stained glass kit. [Emily] I have that! [Patrick] The Hunchback of Notre Dame gumball machine. [Emily] The Hunchback of Notre Dame leaf bags. [Patrick] Oh, yes! I have seen those. Yeah, you could insulate your house with all of the Hunchback of Notre Dame skybox trading cards that never got sold. [Emily] I do have a box of those in the basement as well. This may be another hot take, but in the novel, I still think that Phoebus is more of an antagonist than Frollo is. [Patrick] At least in the novel, Claude Frollo did a couple of good things. You know, he taught Gringoire. He taught Quasimodo. He tries to teach Jehan, but Jehan just never listens. [Leslie] Emily, I think I agree with you to an extent, but I would love to hear your reasoning as to why you think Phoebus’ novel counterpart is worse than Frollo’s. [Emily] In the novel, I do think that Claude Frollo does have some redeeming qualities, where I think Phoebus has nothing. Like, I don’t see any redeeming qualities of Phoebus in the novel. [Leslie] Yeah, Phoebus’ novel counterpart is also pretty different from the version we see in Disney’s adaptation. In the novel, Phoebus is the captain of the King’s archers. Here, he is referred to as the captain of the guard. But I’m under the impression, and correct me if I’m wrong, that it’s the same role, just a slightly different title, maybe to make it easier to understand so kids don’t say, wait, he doesn’t have a bow and arrow. He’s not an archer. [Patrick] It’s just copied from the 1923 movie. [Leslie] Let’s talk about the way Phoebus is portrayed in this movie, because this is a pretty different version of Phoebus than the one we see in the original novel. In the original novel, Phoebus belongs to the streets. He is flat broke, despite being the captain of the King’s archers. So he’s marrying this beautiful, young, noble woman named Fleur-de-Lys, who does appear in a few adaptations of the novel, not in this one. But when he’s not around her, he blows his money on beer, he curses like a sailor, he sleeps with any woman who crosses his path and then abandons her the next day, as in the case of Esmeralda. He is stabbed during a rendezvous that he has with Esmeralda. And despite surviving that murder attempt, he does not attend his own murder trial. And he watches Esmeralda be led to the pillory for her execution, and just turns around and walks away. So not the kind of guy you would want to introduce to your mother. But this conception of Phoebus from the Disney movie is a really good guy. In my experience, a lot of people I talk to who have either never seen this movie or saw this movie many, many, many, many years ago and don’t remember many details about it, misunderstand Phoebus. They assume that he is this big mean jerk character, this kind of jock-like dude who quote-unquote stole Esmeralda from Quasimodo. They don’t like Phoebus because, oh, he got the girl and Quasimodo didn’t. Quasimodo was the one who really deserved her, which we will get to that conversation. But this Phoebus is a really good guy. He does the right thing even when he knows it will get him killed. The sentence for insubordination is death. He doesn’t care. He’s going to stand up and he’s going to do the right thing. And as I mentioned in the book, Clopin is the one who leads the siege on Notre Dame. I think changing that in this movie and having Phoebus lead the siege on Notre Dame against Claude Frollo’s attack on it is a really smart move. It’s a really, really fantastic pinnacle of his character arc. [Patrick] The filmmakers describe this version of Phoebus as a good cop in a bad town. And that’s what I see him as. I see him as a 90s action hero. You know, he’s punching people in the face. He’s getting beaten up. He’s sword fighting with Esmeralda. He is an active, but also funny character, right? The whole idea of so many action heroes in the 90s was that they would have the one-liner. They would get beaten up or they would fire the machine gun and they would say something funny. You know, you’re Schwarzeneggers, you’re Stallones, you’re Jean-Claude Van Dams. All those kind of people were all about the one-liners. Phoebus has a couple one-liners. I enjoy the scene where he gets headbutted by Djali the goat. And he says, oh, I didn’t know you had a kid. I think that’s very funny. But I also used to be in the crowd that thought Phoebus was kind of boring compared to the other characters. He lacks the free spirit of Esmeralda, the menace of Frollo, or the sympathy of Quasimodo. He just kind of seems like a regular dude in comparison. But I think that action hero quality is pretty interesting as far as Disney animated heroes go. I mean, who cares about most Disney animated heroes? And this version of Phoebus is, yes, very different from the book, but he was also very different from how this character was conceived in early versions of this adaptation. In early drafts of the script, he was conceived as an amalgamation of Captain Phoebus from the novel, as well as the character Pierre Gringoire, the skeptical philosopher and ironical poet who is just wrought with misfortune and ends up actually surviving the rather tragic events of Hugo’s story. This version of Phoebus would have been a soldier who didn’t like fighting. He was a coward. His real dream was to become a poet. Unfortunately, he was a terrible poet and had to rely on Quasimodo to be his ghost writer. All of this was cut by like the third or fourth draft of the screenplay. And we ended up with the good cop in a bad town that we have in this version. And I think Kevin Kline, who was a big celebrity in the 90s and not so much today, does give a pretty good performance. He sounds like a nice heroic guy. He sounds like a 90s action hero. And apparently he really enjoyed the role. He was surprised that he was allowed to be creative and contribute to the characterization because he didn’t know that in animated films, you record the lines before the animation is done. And so your performance can inform how the character is drawn and acted out in the scenes. Kevin Kline even brought a sword to some of the recording sessions so that he could remain in character as this brave heroic knight. And unfortunately, that had the side effect of causing damage to the microphone and some of the equipment. The microphone got bonked and knocked around as Kevin Kline was swinging the sword during his recording sessions. [Leslie] Kevin Kline was actually the one who proposed giving Phoebus’ horse a name. In the middle of recording session, he was improvising and he looked up and he said, guys, the horse needs a name. We need to give him a name. So he did have a little bit of input on the character, which I love. [Emily] So a while back, there was a post on Tumblr, I believe, that was circulating about the three characters of Quasimodo, Frollo, and Phoebus and their relationship with Esmeralda. And I believe this post stated something like, Quasimodo viewed Esmeralda as an angel, Frollo viewed her as the devil, and Phoebus viewed her as a person. So that’s why that this person believed that Phoebus was the best person to end up with her. [Leslie] I mean, Quasimodo does refer to Esmeralda as an angel. I can’t recall off the top of my head whether Frollo refers to Esmeralda as a devil or a demon verbatim, but he does equate the quote-unquote control she has over him as an act of the devil. You know, just like Quasimodo is putting Esmeralda on a pedestal, Claude Frollo is also putting Esmeralda on a pedestal, even though that is the pedestal below his, it is still a pedestal. Phoebus is really the only character in the movie who refers to Esmeralda as what she really is, which is a woman. A remarkable woman, sure, but a woman nonetheless. He doesn’t glorify her, he doesn’t make her out to be something that she’s not. He loves her, and he sees her for exactly who she is, which is the best version of herself. Not some otherworldly standard that she can never live up to, and not some horrible demon who should be exterminated. I mean, during the Feast of Fools scene, Phoebus does refer to Esmeralda as a woman. He says, boy, what a woman. So, I do think that post is accurate. I do really like that post. And even outside of this otherworldly standard that Quasimodo is putting upon Esmeralda, uh, not purposefully. He’s not doing it with any malicious intent, it’s just that this is the first woman who has ever been kind to him. Of course he’s going to fall in love with her, of course he’s not really going to know where to place her in his life. Esmeralda is a very worldly woman. In the Disney movie, her age is never shared explicitly. I haven’t seen an official age given to her in any internal documents that I have been able to see. I don’t think Disney ever gave her an age, but they did cast Demi Moore as Esmeralda because they wanted a more mature, smokier voice to match how worldly this woman is. Quasimodo is 20 years old and he’s never left the bell tower. He is a very naive person. He has good instincts and he has a good heart, yes, but there is a certain degree of naivete to him. I don’t think pairing him with a very mature, worldly woman would be a good match. And that’s more or less what I say whenever I meet someone who tells me, oh, I loved the movie but I was so upset that Quasimodo and Esmeralda didn’t end up together. I don’t think the filmmakers could have made it clearer that those two characters are much better off as friends than as lovers. But I don’t begrudge anybody who ships those two characters or who thought that those two characters should have ended up together. That’s just my personal interpretation of the story that we’re given. [Emily] I saw him as feeling a connection to her through their mutual experiences as being outcasts and not necessarily that he was putting her up on this pedestal or that he saw her as this mythical angel being. [Leslie] I think what you’re saying is when he called her an angel in heaven’s light, he wasn’t actually referring to her as a literal angel or trying to hold her to an impossible standard. That was just the way he was articulating this connection that he felt with her because they had bonded over both being outcasts. [Patrick] Quasimodo does put Esmeralda on a bit of a pedestal. She is the first woman who was nice to him. Maybe the first woman he’s ever known. I mean, his mother died when he was an infant. And during the Got Out the Outcast scene, Quasimodo is intrigued by Esmeralda, not because of her beauty, but because of what she’s singing, talking about being an outcast. And were you once an outcast, too? [Emily] And I love that moment in the song where Quasimodo is sitting just on the ledge and he’s looking down and then his head lifts up and you can just see the moment where he feels that connection. And I think that’s one of my favorite moments of the movie. I think that Quasimodo’s love for Esmeralda really comes from feeling that shared connection of being outcasts. And I love that in the German musical, Got Out the Outcast actually has a duet part with Quasimodo and Esmeralda together. [Leslie] I agree that Quasimodo’s feelings for Esmeralda came from both the kindness that she showed him at the Festival of Fools and their shared identity as outcasts. However, I think that love manifests as him referring to her as an angel, which he literally does during Heaven’s Light. I think loving someone, really, really loving someone, and being a healthy partner to them means viewing them as a holistic human being, flaws and all. And I think angel is a very sweet pet name that you can give to a partner once you’re already in an established relationship. But, you know, angels are otherworldly perfect beings, at least in the Christian conception of them. So when I hear a man referring to the first woman who’s ever been nice to him as an angel, I think, oh, that’s cute. He can’t identify any of her shortcomings or her flaws. I don’t think that that’s very healthy. But again, I don’t begrudge anybody who thought that those two characters should have ended up together. [Emily] And to me, I don’t think the point of the movie was to have Quasimodo end up with Esmeralda or anybody else. The ending that he got in the movie was the ending that was meant for him. [Leslie] Yeah, absolutely. His big I want, his big wish for the movie is not I want to end up with Esmeralda or I want to fall in love. That’s his I want for Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame 2, which we will cover at a later date. His I want in this movie, as presented in the song Out There, is I want to leave my bell tower and be a part of society. I want to go out into the streets of Paris and live just one day out there in the world. That’s his I want. Being with Esmeralda is ultimately, as he learns and comes to accept, meant for somebody else. [Emily] In a sense, I think the friendship with Esmeralda fits more with his I want than a relationship does. [Leslie] At the end of the movie, she is the one who extends her hand and leads him into the sunlight. [Patrick] They’re pals. People say that’s a sad ending. I love the sappy, happy ending to this movie. Quasimodo deserves to have the people cheer him on. What would he do with a girlfriend? He’d have to take her out on dates. He’d have to figure out all of this stuff. No, he can worry about that later. [Leslie] And we get to see little hints at Phoebus and Quasimodo coming to respect each other and developing a friendship. One of my favorite moments in this movie is when Phoebus and Quasimodo warn the Romani in the Court of Miracles about Frollo’s impending attack. And Esmeralda hugs Phoebus and has this little romantic moment with him. Phoebus easily could have taken that opportunity to have a very affectionate moment with his woman. But he notices that Quasimodo looks very awkward and uncomfortable and out of place. And Phoebus immediately turns Esmeralda’s attention to Quasimodo just to make Quasimodo feel more included and to make sure Quasimodo gets the appreciation that he deserves. Phoebus didn’t have to do that, but he did. Because guess what? He’s a good guy. And I love seeing him and Quasimodo initially bantering, especially over the map. “I’ve been in battles on four continents and I think I have a pretty good idea of what a map looks like and this is not it.” I love that part, especially when Quasimodo, like, pretends to give Phoebus a slap on the back but ends up really, really hurting him. Sorry, no, you’re not. But I love seeing their tension and this little rivalry that they have evolved through that banter into mutual respect and then into a good friendship. [Emily] One of my favorite lines that Phoebus says is, “well, you leave town for a decade and they change everything.” And honestly, I gotta say, I said that pretty much every day when I went back to Canada to visit my family after a year because I would look around and be like, was that street like this before? Was that house there before? Was that store open? And like, that was the line that was constantly running through my head. [Leslie] Oh my gosh, Patrick and I say that to each other all the freaking time. Every time we go back to visit either of our hometowns and we see that a building has been demolished or a new business has opened up or like, our next door neighbors have moved, we’ll look at each other and we’ll say, you leave town for a couple of decades and they change everything. Speaking of which, a couple of decades. Okay, how old is Phoebus? He’s not given an age in Hugo’s novel. He’s not given an age in this movie. Everybody likes to talk about the quote unquote unhealthy inappropriate age gap between Esmeralda and Phoebus in this movie, but neither of them are given ages. [Patrick] My guess is for a couple of decades, he’s 30 at the most. Maybe he was a young squire and was traveling around the quote unquote wars, whatever they are. He also mentions that he was in battle on four continents. Which ones? Like, all of Afro-Eurasia? [Leslie] Which I think makes him an even better match for Esmeralda. He has been all over the world. Esmeralda has probably also been all over the world. You know, she’s a Romani woman. They traveled the continent in caravans. [Emily] And that’s another reason why I really, really wish they kept In a Place of Miracles in the final movie. [Leslie] Yeah, let’s talk about that. There were a couple duets written for Phoebus and Esmeralda, if I’m not mistaken, but they all ended up on the cutting room floor. What do we think about that? I know one was called In a Place of Miracles. One was called As Long As There’s a Moon, I think. I’m probably misrepresenting some of these details. [Patrick] Those songs were cut because they focus so much on the romance between Phoebus and Esmeralda. At the end of the day, even though Hugo’s novel is an ensemble piece, this movie is called The Hunchback of Notre Dame. In a Place of Miracles is like seven minutes. And Quasimodo just kind of sits around in the background for most of that. That’s a long time in a kid’s movie to not have your main character on screen. And having such a lovey dovey sequence can easily kind of alienate your boy audience and get people flicking the tongues and going bleh, like nothing. I mean, there was a scene in In a Place of Miracles, which is a catchy tune, where Phoebus and Esmeralda ride around on a unicorn. But it’s such a silly romantic scene that it really takes you away from the pathos and focus. And for a character like Esmeralda, who’s mostly portrayed as being very streetwise and tough, such a long romantic ballad is a little bit out of place in my opinion. [Emily] I just think it’s such a cute song and a cute scene. So back in like 2006-2007, before googling song lyrics was a thing, especially for deleted scenes, and before speech-to-text was super accurate, I remember my parents almost killed me one morning because I had stayed up all night transcribing In a Place of Miracles and trying to memorize it. So I had taken a voice recorder and played, I think it was like the laserdisc, into the voice recorder. So I had a copy of the song and then I stayed up all night writing out the lyrics by hand and then singing it out loud to be able to memorize it. And I kept my parents awake all night and the next morning they just about killed me. [Leslie] Speaking of Esmeralda, what do you guys think about this conception of the character? She is pretty different from Victor Hugo’s Esmeralda, who is not a damsel in distress by any means, I would argue. I mean, there are a couple instances where she physically attacks Claude Frollo in order to fight him off of her, get him to leave her the heck alone, but she is very naive in that book. I mean, she is a 16-year-old girl. Here, this Esmeralda is much more worldly and much more mature. She has a very good head on her shoulders and her I want is, I want liberty and justice for all. I want all the people of the world to be on an equal playing field. She’s the kind of woman who will pump her fist into the air in front of perhaps the most powerful person in the city and cry justice. I cannot see the Esmeralda from Victor Hugo’s novel doing something like that, nor would she be interested in it if she was even capable of it. And as I said, the filmmakers cast Demi Moore, perhaps one of the most in-demand film stars of the 1990s, because of her voice. They wanted a more mature, smoky quality to Esmeralda’s voice. They didn’t want that bright musical theater quality like Belle from Beauty and the Beast had, like Jasmine from Aladdin has, like Ariel from The Little Mermaid has. They wanted a more mature sound for a more mature Disney heroine. What do we think of this conception of Esmeralda? [Patrick] You know, you might not have seen Esmeralda from the novel Shouting Justice, but hey, you’d certainly see the Esmeralda from the 1939 movie doing that. I see this conception of character as being very of the time. You know, the 90s were the girl power era, and Demi Moore was certainly a popular actress of the time, also very regarded as being very physically attractive. She was a sex symbol of the 90s, and the same year as this film came out, 1996, she also starred in a movie called “Striptease”, where she played a sex worker. This Esmeralda is meant to be a strong female character, trademark, copyright symbol, dollar sign, forever and ever, amen. But I don’t think that she’s a cliche. She’s not one of the spice girls. This Esmeralda is tough, but she’s also smart and compassionate. Emily, you were talking about how you love her relationship with Quasimodo. I do as well. She has a sensitivity and a real envy and appreciation for him. It’s not just a shared bonding over them both being outcasts. She is an outcast for her status as a Romani woman, and Quasimodo was an outcast for his status, for his deformities and disabilities. Esmeralda also thinks Quasimodo is cool. She’s used to traveling around and living on the outskirts of society, but when she visits Quasimodo in the bell tower, she’s like, man, this guy has a cool loft apartment. You got like bells and little crafts and action figures where you live vicariously through the people of Paris up above. I wish I could live like this. You know, I bet the king himself doesn’t have an apartment like this. [Emily] Honestly, if I could live in the bell towers, I totally would. I love that Esmeralda doesn’t see herself above Quasimodo. Although she does free him at the Festival of Fools, she never treats Quasimodo as beneath her, and I think that she sees them as equals. She never sees herself as his savior. [Patrick] No, and she even offers to have him run away with her. Come with me. Go to the Court of Miracles. Leave this place. Not as in like, oh, you poor boy, let me help you escape. No, come with me. We’ll go on an adventure. We’ll live. We’ll have fun. She does see him as an equal of sorts, but I think there is still a bit of a maternal quality to Esmeralda. She sees herself as a bit of a protector figure. I mean, I don’t think that’s entirely a bad thing. I mean, after all, he’s the hunchback of Notre Dame. Everyone hates him. Like that one guy in the green shirt that’s like, you bell ringer, what are you doing down here? Haven’t you caused enough trouble already? [Emily] And I think that maternal instinct isn’t necessarily only for Quasimodo. I think that’s just her natural character. And I also love that she doesn’t develop the friendship with Quasimodo out of pity. Like, yes, she does initially free him from the Festival of Fools, but as their actual friendship develops throughout the movie, like she never talks down to him, she never sees him as lesser than her, but I really like how Esmeralda meets Quasimodo where he is, and I don’t just mean that in a literal sense of meeting him in the bell tower. [Patrick] They’re able to relate to each other. [Emily] And I love the genuine conversations that they have. I feel like it is a true friendship and not necessarily a friendship just out of pity. [Leslie] Yep, I totally agree. When she says he’s a surprising person, and she praises his artistic talent, and she says he’s lucky to have all of that room to himself, she’s not just saying that to be nice. You can tell she genuinely means it. [Emily] And that whole scene with her saying I see no monster lines, again, one of my favorite scenes. Well, honestly, the whole bell tower scene is probably my favorite scene in the whole movie. But I truly think that everything that she tells Quasimodo, she really means it. It’s not just trying to be nice or just trying to say something out of pity. I think that she genuinely believes those things. [Leslie] I don’t think Esmeralda’s the kind of person who could bullshit anybody. I think she keeps it real. [Patrick] What about that kiss, though? She does kiss Quasimodo on the cheek. Was that leading him on? [Leslie] I personally didn’t see it that way. I think she was just trying to get him out of his head. Because in that moment, he was, you know, just coming up with a bunch of excuses as to why he couldn’t see her again. And, oh, well, you know, I have to do this, and I have to do this. And I could tell that he was getting really deep into his own head at that moment. I think she was just trying to get him to refocus his attention on her. [Patrick] Esmeralda is certainly a tougher character than her Victor Hugo counterpart. She’s not nearly as moony-eyed and romantic. She’s more of a scrapper. [Emily] One of my favorite things about watching all these different adaptations of the same story, especially the stage musicals, is going in with the particular mindset that I am watching this creative team’s adaptation of the story, and not necessarily comparing the adaptations against each other or even against the original source material. [Leslie] I like that they kept the goat from Victor Hugo’s novel. Although in Victor Hugo’s novel, Djali is a girl, and here Djali is a boy. Could you even begin to come up with a theory as to why they changed the goat’s gender of all characters? I’m wondering if it’s just an accident. [Patrick] It’s an accident that results in, arguably, Disney’s first gay couple. Because Hugo the gargoyle keeps making kissy faces at Djali the goat, and it seems like they’re something of a romantic item. And whether this was intentional or not, Djali’s called a he, Hugo the gargoyle’s called a he. I think that’s raising a few, well, not red flags in this case, I suppose rainbow flags. [Leslie] Happy Pride Month, y'all. I also love the implication that Djali and Esmeralda are sharing a single pair of earrings, because they both have one single earring, and they match. I think that’s really cute. I don’t know if Djali’s gender swap was just a mistake or a coincidence, because if you look back at all of the great Disney heroines, if you look at Ariel, and if you look at Snow White, and if you look at Cinderella, they all have sidekicks. Their sidekicks are all boys. The Seven Dwarves are men. Jacques and Gus the mice are boys. Flounder is a boy. These female protagonists always have a male sidekick. So as we’ve said multiple times thus far, this is an animated musical. There are several musical adaptations of Victor Hugo’s novel. This is the first one we’ve covered on this podcast so far. The music was done by two musical theater legends, the great composer Alan Menken and the phenomenal lyricist Stephen Schwartz, who is also the composer and lyricist of the hit Broadway musical “Wicked”. I think Menken and Schwartz were operating at the absolute top of their game when they wrote the music for this movie. And listener, if you’re listening to this, I’m assuming that you have already seen this movie or at least listened to the music on the soundtrack. If not, I highly recommend it. It is absolutely phenomenal. So we decided that rather than going through all of the songs chronologically and recounting their purpose in moving the story along, we all decided to create our own personal rankings of all of the songs in this movie, from our least favorite to our most favorite. And we are going to share those rankings now live with each other. We have not shared them with each other up till this point. I am anticipating that there is going to be blood, but we won’t know until we get there. Those songs, of course, in chronological order are The Bells of Notre Dame, Out There, Topsy-Turvy, God Help the Outcasts, Heaven’s Light, Hellfire, A Guy Like You, and The Court of Miracles. Pat, would you like to start us off and share your ranking of all of the songs in Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame from your least favorite to your most favorite? And by the way, just because we put a song in the first position, our least favorite, does not mean that we’re saying it’s bad. We’re just saying that out of all of the phenomenal songs in this movie, that one is the, I’ll say, worst best. [Patrick] Now, I am ranking these songs both as songs and as sequences in the movie, right? These are not necessarily meant to be listened to in isolation, though they did obviously release a soundtrack CD. My least favorite is going to be A Guy Like You, which is actually a very catchy song and very fun and there’s a lot of good puns. I enjoy the rhyming of Adonis with Croissant is. I also really enjoy its purpose in the film, which is to, yes, provide a bit of comic relief during the dramatic scenes where Frollo is burning down all of Paris, but also to get Quasimodo’s hopes up, only to immediately dash them to the ground once he realizes, oh, Esmeralda will never love me. Instead, she’s in love with Phoebus. My problem with the song is less its purpose, less the song itself, and more how it is portrayed in the film. I don’t enjoy all of the contemporary pop culture references when the gargoyles turn into barbers and other sorts of comic characters like poker players or drag performers. I find it to be a little too Aladdin for my taste, whereas this movie, there’s plenty of comic relief, is a bit more grounded. I’m not asking for this movie to be a historical documentary, but I just think it’s a bit too wacky for my sensibilities. Then I have, and this might be controversial, Heaven’s Light. [Leslie] I’m taking my ring off. [Patrick] I like Heaven’s Light. I like it as a contrast to Hellfire, but it exists in the shadow of Hellfire, and more importantly, it’s too short. It’s only about a minute long, and it’s ruined in the movie because the animators had to go back after some test screenings and animate a bunch of scenes of the gargoyles punching each other and drawing and having the world’s loudest sound effects that literally drown out Tom Hulce’s singing, which is a shame because the actual song of the sentiments are very beautiful and very sad, where Quasimodo, like his novel counterpart, sees himself as hideous and ugly, but yearning for Esmeralda and appreciating her kindness. There’s a lot there. I appreciate how Alan Menken uses very humble instruments, medieval instruments, like the recorder, which is not just a thing that your third grade teacher used to torture you, but it’s also a really good wooden instrument if you can play it right, which nobody can, except for the performers in this film. The exaggerated sound effects and goofy stuff really take me out of the scene, which is a shame because the original storyboards for the Heaven’s Light scene show the gargoyles helping Quasimodo and reflecting on him, but being a bit more somber. They still have their comic relief function, but we’re not nearly so obnoxious as to take me out of the scene. Then I have Topsy Turvy, and Topsy Turvy really does not work as its own individual song. It’s just about three or four segments of a sequence that all have more or less the same tune, but I think it works. The whole sequence is very engaging, fun, and funny, visually impressive, and Paul Kandel really gets the ball rolling with his amazing performance. Stephen Schwartz has a lot of fun lyricism, but I don’t think Alan Menken’s composition is as memorable as some of the other points on this list. Then we have God Help the Outcasts, which thank goodness was used in this film instead of the infinitely inferior Someday, which was its temporary replacement. God Help the Outcasts is bold, it is very humble, and it’s really beautiful. Its place in the film is not marred by comic relief, but it’s also really different than any other song I can think of for a Disney movie. Especially I appreciate how it is explicitly religious, talking about a religious plea, as Esmeralda refers to the Virgin Mary, and though it’s a scene ripped straight out of earlier adaptations, it’s done very well, and Heidi Molenhauer, who doubles for Demi Moore, is not only a perfect double, but an amazing singer as well, and I often find myself nearly brought to tears listening to her pleas for compassion and for mercy for her people. We have another hot take for Being This High, The Court of Miracles. I really like this song. It’s short, it’s only about a minute long, but it’s very fun and very engaging, and I’ll give some bonus points for having references to the novel. In the novel, the Court of Miracles is referred to the place where the lame walk and the blind see. Well, that’s the case in this adaptation as well, even if it doesn’t make complete sense because the Romani are portrayed as victims, and pretending to be disabled to elicit pity and additional money is scamming people, so kind of lose my pity a little bit there, but this is a fun, edgy scene. I love the humor with Clopin playing the role of lawyers and the judges all in one. It’s short but sweet. It’s fun, and I think it’s better than any of the abandoned romantic sequences that would have been in this film. Alright, now for the top three. These are all really tough, and my number one is really more personal than anything, I do admit. Next we got The Bells of Notre Dame. I would put this higher because I think this is the best scene in the movie. It is such a freight train of a sequence. You have the Latin choir going, you have “stop, cried the archdeacon,” you have unbelievable character animation, special effects, camera work, and some of the most shocking material you’ll see in any Disney movie. I mean, Frollo tries to drown a baby, that’s just about the worst thing you can see, and it’s one of the only elements of this film I think might come close to going too far. This is such a wonderful, dramatic sequence, but it doesn’t get full points for me because it is so tied in with the movie itself. You can’t really listen to it independently, but I think The Bells of Notre Dame is arguably the strongest sequence in the film. Much of it was storyboarded and designed by two French artists. This movie was an international production, Paul and Gaetan Brizzi, and their work really shows. It is a moody, dramatic piece and sets the stage for a really unique and different take on a Disney formula. All right, number two, we got Hellfire. Everybody loves Hellfire. It is dark, it is dramatic, it is visually engaging. We also have a few more references to Hugo’s novel that I appreciate. When Frollo says, “it’s not my fault if in God’s plan he made the devil so much stronger than a man.” That comes right out of the chapter where Frollo confesses his obsession to Esmeralda while she’s locked in the prison dungeon. It is a marvelous sequence, and there’s not really too much I can say about it other than I want to give Tony Jay some credit. He’s not a singer, he’s a voice actor. And like Tom Hulce, he might not have a singer’s voice, but he has a unique voice that he brings a unique perspective to. And Tony Jay really works above his pay grade. I think he does a great job, even if he’s not a professional singer. And speaking with people who do a good job despite not being professional, my number one, Out There. Yes, it is the most conventional song of this movie. It is your I want. It is your part of your world. It is I can’t wait to be king. It’s that part of Beauty and the Beast when Belle says, I want to adventure in the great wide somewhere. Yes, it’s conventional, but it’s so beautiful and charming. I love the visuals of Quasimodo climbing about the cathedral, which is a detail from the novel, as loose of an adaptation this is, that I don’t think any other adaptation, except for perhaps the Lon Chaney version, really captures. Quasimodo is an athletic character. He climbs and leaps about Notre Dame like a lizard or a mountain goat, and is in total harmony with the church. I love how you start very quiet and humble with Frollo’s piece, and Quasimodo’s piece is almost whispered at the beginning, and at the end is fully belted out. It’s visually spectacular, it’s fun, it’s light-hearted, and it still has a lot of pathos. I really sorrow for Quasimodo, and Tom Hulce’s non-conventional voice really aids with that, and I also would recommend listening to this song in other languages. The German version is excellent. The European French version is also very excellent. Now, Leslie, where do you lie? [Leslie] All right, my least favorite song from this movie, and I fully anticipate that a pitchfork-wielding mob of Clopin fans will materialize at my doorstep within two business days of this episode being posted online, is Topsy Turvy. Maybe it’s because I was 12 years old the first time I watched this movie, but the lyrics read a little Dr. Seuss to me. I still cringe every time I hear the line, everything is upsy-daisy. I don’t want to be listening to songs with those lyrics, so. It’s a fun song, and it functions well within the story, at least as a way to move us from set piece to set piece. Okay, here’s Quasimodo meeting Esmeralda, now here’s Esmeralda dancing at the Festival of Fools, now here’s Quasimodo being pulled up on stage and crowned king. It really establishes what this day is all about and what it represents to the Parisians, but as a song in isolation, like I said, it’s a little kiddie to me. And yes, this is ultimately a kid’s film, but just because it’s a kid’s film doesn’t mean that it has to be too juvenile or too kiddie. [Patrick] What is so juvenile about scurvy knaves are extra scurvy on the 6th of January? [Leslie] That’s Dr. Seuss line. [Patrick] You’re a Dr. Seuss line. [Leslie] My next song on my list is The Court of Miracles. I feel kind of bad that I put two Clopin songs in a row. Please don’t come after me, Clopin fans. I really do like this character, I promise, even though I’m not really expressing it well. Paul Kandel gives a very good vocal performance in this scene, but the song doesn’t do much for me as a song outside of serving the functional purpose of introducing the audience to the Court of Miracles, and even then I think it could do a better job. Maybe we can have an additional verse explaining who Clopin is and what his actual role within the court is in practical terms outside of, I am the lawyer and judge all in one. Okay, does that mean you’re the king? Does that mean you’re just in charge of sentencing and executing the people who trespass and there’s different king? I don’t know. I wish this song did more because it does have a pretty catchy tune. Here in the Court of Miracles where it’s a miracle if you get out alive. That’s fun to sing. My next song is A Guy Like You. Again, I think it’s a fun piece, but my reasons for disliking the song loop back in with my reasons for disliking The Gargoyles. I think a lot of this movie’s tonal inconsistencies come down to those characters and what they do within the story. I do think they have some halfway funny moments in my opinion, but those characters are just pretty tonally inconsistent compared to what the rest of the movie accomplishes. Although Patrick, just like you, I did give many extra points for lyrical genius Stephen Schwartz rhyming Adonis with croissant is absolutely fantastic. My next song is God Help the Outcasts. I agree that it is a very pretty song. I like that the moment is treated reverently and not stuffed with little comic relief moments because that would have been so easy for the filmmakers to do. Just cut away from Esmeralda singing to Djali burping on the candlesticks or knocking over a bunch of holy relics or something. That would have been easy, but instead they chose to keep that moment reverent and I really appreciate that. Again, I’m not saying it’s a bad song compared to the four I put above it, but I am saying that this is really a ranking of the best of the best and while God Help the Outcasts is pretty, it does not reach the level of show-stopping grandeur that some of the other songs in this movie do. My next song is Heaven’s Light. I probably ranked this so high because I used to have a crush on Quasimodo when I was a kid and this scene just made me blush and kick my feet when I was younger, but I think it is a very, very sweet profession of romance from someone who has never really had a crush on anyone before. I mean, I think Menken and Schwartz perfectly summarize and express through this song what it’s like to be young and be in love with somebody and to wrestle with a lot of self-loathing, but have this person come into your life and inspire all of these dreams of mutual love and mutual respect within you. Like you said, Patrick, I just wish we didn’t have so many gargoyle antics. I wish that this scene was treated like God Help the Outcasts and that we did away with the funny side character moments and we just kept it in this beautiful little reverent bubble and gave it the respect it deserves. My next song is Out There. I think in terms of Disney I want songs, it is one of the stronger options on the list, but the reason I didn’t rank it higher is because, well, number one, the other two I have ranked above this are just absolutely phenomenal, but now that I am a trained singer, Tom Hulse’s shortcomings within this vocal performance really, really stick out to me in ways that they just didn’t the first hundred or so times I watched this movie. I mean, those diphthongs really, really, really make me want to dig my nails into the sofa and just tear it up, but other than that, I think it’s a beautiful I want song, and like you said, Patrick, I love watching Quasimodo run around the cathedral just like he does in Victor Hugo’s novel. You know, Quasimodo is a very physically strong character, and I like how this movie portrays his athleticism. I like that he’s swinging on the gargoyles. I like that he is swinging on that big leaden spire. My next song is The Bells of Notre Dame. I think that it is an absolutely phenomenal sequence, both in isolation as a song to listen to on a soundtrack and within the story. I totally agree with you, Patrick. This is the darkest, riskiest sequence within this movie, even darker and riskier than Hellfire, because what, within the first five minutes of this movie, we see a woman’s skull crack open when she falls down the stairs? I mean, we see a dead body for quite some time in this sequence, and not even Victor Hugo wrote a scene of a character attempting to throw a baby down a well. Like, my goodness. Thankfully, this sequence’s darkness, those more mature, horrifying elements, have the musical grandeur to back them up. We have this beautiful choir performing the iconic Dies Irae. Just absolutely fantastic. And of course, my number one is Hellfire, because in my opinion, how could it not be? My favorite film review YouTuber is a guy who goes by the name Shea Frillis online, and a couple years ago, around Halloween, he did a ranking of what he thinks are the top 30 villain songs ever written. Not just Disney villain songs, but villain songs across movie musicals and stage musicals. He ranked Hellfire as number one by a landslide, and I completely agree. I think it is the best villain song ever written. I think Tony Jay gives a phenomenal performance. As a non-singer, I think he is a better singer than Tom Hulse. He absolutely nails this performance. And funny enough, just the other day, one of our listeners shared on social media that she was once listening to this song in her car, and she had the music turned up so high, and she got so into it that she ended up totaling her vehicle. And she was fine, but if that doesn’t demonstrate how phenomenal and bone-chilling this song is, I don’t know what will. And frankly, I’m surprised I haven’t totaled my car while I’m blasting this song while I’m on Route I-70. [Patrick] There have been some close calls. [Leslie] I regret to say that, yeah, you’re right. Where do you lie, Miss Emily? [Emily] So it sounds like my rankings fall a little bit between both of yours, actually. Now, I will say as well, I don’t dislike any of the music in this movie, but as we said earlier, this is really a ranking of the least best to the best, so that is also where I stand on that. And I think some of the thought process that went into my ranking also comes from the fact that I’ve seen so many of the musical adaptations live, and I was actually in one as well. I think another criteria that played into my ranking is how much fun the song is to sing. So my least favorite is The Court of Miracles. I think it’s a really fun song. I think it helps advance the plot. I think it maybe makes that scene a little less frightening for young children, but it doesn’t really do a lot for me. The next one on my list is A Guy Like You. I know a majority of the fandom does not like this song, but I actually don’t hate it. I think it’s a really fun number. The next one on my list is Topsy Turvy. So similar to what Leslie said, I think it is a really fun number, but is a little bit more on the juvenile side. One thing I love about this song, and I guess it’s not really the song itself, but the scene, is that it includes so many of the characters together. So the next one on my list may be a really hot take, but the next one is Hellfire. Friendship over! Get off! I know! I know! [Patrick] But there’s the cool guys in the red robes! [Emily] Ah, I know! I’m sorry, guys! It’s not that I don’t love this song. I do love this song. It’s just that I love the other songs on the list more. I know this song would be ranked a lot higher if I was just comparing it to other Disney villain songs, because it is my favorite Disney villain song. I also have to say that although I do love Tony Jay’s voice in this song, the German version of the song, particularly in the musicals, is probably my favorite. The next song on my list is God Help the Outcasts. So this may be a little bit of a hot take as well, but I actually think I like Someday More. But I do love God Help the Outcasts because it is such a fun song to sing, and I think it’s such a beautiful sequence. When I did musical theatre, this was always my audition song, and I also sang it multiple times at cabarets and solo performances, so this one does hold a very special place in my heart. I also love the sequence as a whole in the movie. I also love how this scene really shows off the beauty of Notre Dame’s architecture. So I guess we’re coming into the top three now. So my next song is The Bells of Notre Dame. I think The Bells of Notre Dame is the best opening to any Disney movie. I love the intensity of it. I love the storytelling. I love the scenery. I think this is such a powerful and cinematic number. Number two on my list is Heaven’s Light. Now, I know I may have a little bit of a bias because my favourite character is Quasimodo, so that definitely played a part into why I chose this song as number two. I think this is such a beautiful number, and I really connected with Quasimodo in this moment. To be completely honest, I don’t even know if I can describe how much I love this song. I just love everything about it. I just think everything about this song is absolutely gorgeous. I think the scenery is beautiful. I think the vocals are beautiful. I do absolutely love Tom Hulce’s voice in this song. Number one on my list is Out There, which I guess maybe doesn’t come as a surprise, knowing that Quasimodo is my absolute favourite character. I think this song is absolutely beautiful in every sense. [Patrick] Yeah, but is the scenery very accurate to how Notre Dame actually looked in the Middle Ages? [Emily] So both of you mentioned while talking about the song how you loved that it depicted Quasimodo jumping around Notre Dame and all of its architecture, and I also love that about this song. However, there are very significant historical inaccuracies that are in place here. So the climax of the song when Quasimodo climbs up to the very, very top of the spire and has this beautiful moment, however, it is completely historically inaccurate because the spire that Quasimodo was standing on did not exist in 1482. In 1482, there would have been another spire on Notre Dame, but it would not have been as grandeur or as ornate or as decorative as the one that is depicted in the movie. It was not as tall, it was more plain, it was not nearly as exciting. Now that first spire was initially built in the 1200s and it was initially built as an additional bell tower. Unfortunately, due to time and age in the late 1700s, it was taken down, not necessarily due to any tragic accident or any fires, but just as a preventative measure to prevent a collapse because it was very unstable in the wind and the bells were starting to weigh it down. There’s also this beautiful moment in the song when Quasimodo slides down the back of the gargoyle and he splashes his face with water. Now those are actually gargoyles, but the gargoyles that are in the movie are not gargoyles. So to be truly and correctly classified as a gargoyle, it has to have a functional purpose as a water spout to drain the water away from the side of the building, as we see in Out There. I’m not a linguistics major, but the origin of the word gargoyle comes from the same origin as the modern phrase that we know today as gargling water. In comparison, there are grotesques, which are creatures that are purely decorative. So we have gargoyles that are functional and grotesques that are purely decorative. Under the category of a grotesque, there is something else that’s called a chimera. In mythology, a chimera is this mythical animal that has the head of a lion, the tail of a snake, and a goat sticking out of the side. [Patrick] Oh, I see those all the time. [Emily] In architecture, a chimera is specifically a type of grotesque that combines multiple animals, humans, and mythical beasts together to make a new fantasy beast. So all chimera are grotesques, but not all grotesques are chimera. So technically, the gargoyles that you see in the movie are actually chimera. But the chimera that are on Notre Dame were not added until the 1850s. [Leslie] So either Victor Hugo and Laverne are time travelers from 400 years in the future, or this movie is historically inaccurate. [Patrick] Emily, are you telling me that the Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame trademark official gargoyle joke book trademark copyright patent pending is not really accurately titled? It should be the Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame trademark copyright symbol smiley face dollar sign official chimeric grotesque joke book? [Emily] You are correct. There are 54 different chimera that were added to Notre Dame in the 1850s, and one of them in particular is special. There is a chimera just at the base of the North Tower, and it is the only one of the 54 that actually have a name. So her name is the Striege and comes from the Latin word witch. In mythology, it also has associations to bats and vampires, and the animal itself is depicted as a bloodthirsty bird or flesh eating owl. So the chimera on Notre Dame is a combination of an owl with a goat, a snake, and a woman. It is thought that the inspiration for its design was to combine the three characters as Quasimodo as the grotesque, Esmeralda as the witch, and Claude Frollo, because in the novel, there’s a moment where he’s standing in the same position with the same expression on his face. [Leslie] Oh, there you go. All right, friends, we have reached the end of this very exciting episode of The Hunchcast of Notre Dame, but before we wrap here, Patrick, what are your overall thoughts on the movie we discussed today? [Patrick] Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame is not one of the most popular films of the Disney Renaissance, and to be honest, there really only are like three movies of the Disney Renaissance. Are you really going to say that Tarzan or Mulan is on the same level of Beauty and the Beast? No. The box office and critical reception at the time really shows that, and Hunchback is seen as emblematic alongside Pocahontas of Disney’s decline, the fall of the Renaissance era from its heights of financial and critical and, frankly, popular success. We mentioned how the merchandise for this movie didn’t sell. You find it in American flea markets all the time, unused, but the movie wasn’t a flop by any means. Even so, it’s not one of the more popular Disney films, which has earned it a bit of a reputation over the years. The people who remember this movie and love this movie really love this movie. It’s often called a hidden gem. People praise that it’s different than a lot of other Disney films, and I’m going to echo a lot of those sentiments, cliche as they may be in the year 2026. This movie is not just dark, it’s also good. You know, you could have something that’s dark and a little bit edgy for a children’s film, and this is still ultimately a children’s film. I don’t think it goes too far and be terrible. No, this does not go too far. It’s different. It’s bold. It’s beautiful. It is an absolute marvel and a technical achievement beyond almost any other hand-drawn animated film, and it just reminds me how sad and tragic it is that this medium of handcrafted, handmade art was in decline as the movie was being produced. Toy Story came out the year before, which I understand computer animation, you do still animate most things by hand, but it was just paving the way for computers to take over and artists to be easily replaceable by animators who can be trained in a matter of weeks versus artists who need a lifetime of their craft to know how to draw from every angle, to really understand character and art and the power of animation, which means bringing something to life. That’s something we lost, and this movie is a bit of a lost cause, a bit of a tragedy, but it’s a lot of things. But what it is most importantly to me is one of my favorite films, Flaws and All. I love this movie. Now, Leslie, what are your overall thoughts? [Leslie] Oh my goodness. What can I say about Disney’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame that has not already been said either by us today or by the copious amounts of video essays and retrospectives published online? Absolutely nothing. So instead, I will close out with this. If I had not been introduced to this movie when I was 12 years old in my 6th grade French class, not only would I not be hosting a podcast today with dedicated listeners on six continents, but I would not be engaged. I would not be in the process of planning my wedding. I would not be living in the region that I currently call home. I probably never would have traveled to Paris, France. I probably never would have traveled to Sydney, Australia. I never would have met so many amazing people who I consider to be great lifelong friends, including the two of you. I could go on. When I say that this movie changed my life, I’m not saying it’s the best film adaptation of Victor Hugo’s Notre Dame de Paris. I am not saying it is a flawless movie in general. I’m not even saying it’s one of my favorite movies. Nowadays, it’s not even in my top five. I am, however, saying that if this movie had not entered my life at exactly the right time, I would not be the same person living in the same place surrounded by the same people. And I think that is the highest compliment I can give this work of art. Now, where do you lie, Emily? [Emily] I think that as a Disney movie, it is absolutely gorgeous. I love the music. I love the scenery. I love the characters. Looking at it as an adaptation of Victor Hugo’s novel, that’s definitely a different opinion. But I love going into all these adaptations with the mindset of being able to watch it as an interpretation of this particular creative team, and not necessarily comparing it to other adaptations or even the source material. [Leslie] So, Emily, we have a game we like to play to close out every episode of the Hunchcast. It is a Hunchback-specific version of the classic game F. Mary Kill. Instead of those categories, we ask ourselves, out of everyone and everything we discussed in today’s episode, who or what would we, one, meet at the inn, two, turn to dust with, and three, throw off of Notre Dame? And meet at the inn does not have to mean anything over PG-rated. It can just mean going on a nice date or just grabbing a drink with platonically. So, I’ll kick this to you first, Patrick. Who are you taking to the inn? Who are you turning to dust with? And who are you throwing off of Notre Dame? [Patrick] All right. So, during the Topsy-Turvy sequence, you got those guys, when Clopin is singing, join the bums and thieves and strumpets. When he’s talking about the thieves specifically, a bunch of evil spy versus spy guys with big noses run across the screen. They seem like they’d be a good time. Not that I would condone thievery, robbery, or any kind of highwaymen-type activity. And as for who I am turning to dust with, I am turning to dust with Alan Menken. His score for this movie is wonderful. It is unlike anything you would see in any other Disney animated film. And he scored most of them throughout the 1990s and early 2000s. It is operatic. It is symphonic. It is beautiful and full of character themes. And it does a great job telling the story as much as the animation or any of the other wonderful aspects of this movie does. So without Alan Menken, this movie would be much poorer. As for who I’m throwing off of Notre Dame, I’m going to say the children in the test screening room who got bored during the Heaven’s Light sequence. When that sequence was first animated, the gargoyles were not doing their silly antics with punching each other and drawing pictures of Esmeralda. When they were screening that scene for test audiences, kids were bored. They were squirming in their seats. And then executives said, all right, the sequence is too boring. Add some action. Add some humor. Add more of the gargoyles doing silly things and pop culture references. And they did. And it made the scene much worse, in my opinion. So all of those kids are getting thrown off of Notre Dame. They’re all at least 30 years old by now. So they’ve had a decent life. And I’m afraid it’s about to end. [Leslie] Why throw them off of Notre Dame? Why not throw them down a well? [Patrick] They’re a little bit too big for that. They might be able to swim. [Leslie] Or climb. So back to in Dust Throw, I am going to meet the song Hellfire at the inn. It is absolutely intense. Maybe it would be a little too much for me for a casual rendezvous at the inn, a drink, a date, whatever. But I would still like to spend some quality time with Hellfire. Any song that is so intense and grandiose that it can prompt somebody to total their car, I want to get to know it. So I’m taking Hellfire to the inn. I am turning to Dust with, and I might regret saying this because we’re spending two hours with him next Saturday, I’m going to turn to Dust with Oscar-nominated screenwriter Tab Murphy. Yes, he was not the one who originally pitched the idea to the Walt Disney Company that, hey, maybe Victor Hugo’s novel could be adapted into an animated musical. But Tab Murphy was the person who found the Disney movie within that novel. And if he hadn’t done that, the three of us would not be sitting here today. So I’m turning to Dust with Mr. Tab Murphy. And as for who I’m throwing off of Notre Dame, I have chosen Clopin’s murky identity. Not Clopin, not Clopin himself. Please don’t come for me, Clopin girl on TikTok. But just the fact that we don’t know what Clopin’s role in the world of this movie really is, that doesn’t sit right with me. I would really like to know more about this character as he appears in this film. So I am going to throw Clopin’s murky identity off of Notre Dame Cathedral, plummeting down into the square below. What did you come up with, Emily? [Emily] So I would take Quasimodo to the inn. I think he is such a great character. And to be honest, like you, Leslie, I had a huge crush on him. And I don’t think that ever left, if I’m being completely honest. [Leslie] To be completely transparent, I am also in that camp. [Emily] This is not a weird parasocial, I think he’s a real person in any sense. But just, I love his character so much and I still have a crush on him. And when I did some of these news interviews for the reopening, people asked me if I had a boyfriend or a romantic partner. And I joked that I did not. And that, well, I wasn’t looking for one. But even if I did, that they would have to always accept that Quasimodo would be number one. And I still stand by that. [Leslie] Period. So I think there are a surprising number of women out there who would admit, maybe hesitantly, that yeah, I had feelings for this character at one point in my life. What about it? [Emily] I have said very vocally that I will physically fight you for Quasimodo. And I’m not lying about that. [Leslie] I would lose that fight. To be completely honest. You probably would. I love you, Leslie. But you would lose this fight. I love you too, girl. But oh gosh, no. I need to get back in the gym. [Patrick] You know, my dad’s named Jim. [Emily] As for a turn to dust with, I have to say Notre Dame for this answer. I absolutely love this building. And not necessarily just in the context of the story of the Hunchback of Notre Dame, but all of its resilience throughout history. Over its 863 year history, it has seen so many changes, so many periods of destruction, multiple fires, overhauls, restorations, and throughout it all, it is still standing today. So I absolutely love the resilience of this building. As for who to throw off Notre Dame, I have to say it’s the tie between the soldier who threw the tomato at Quasimodo and the Archdeacon of the Cathedral in the Disney film. The kindly elderly man? [Patrick] That guy just lets Frollo imprison Quasimodo. [Emily] Yeah, like you cannot deny that he doesn’t know what’s going on. He was thrown down a flight of stairs. You can’t deny that he isn’t aware that Frollo has locked Quasimodo in the bell tower, right? Like he probably has full knowledge of that. [Patrick] You know, it might have been the Archdeacon’s idea, because Frollo just says, “oh, put Quasimodo anywhere. Just so he’s kept locked away.” All Frollo says to the Archdeacon is, “let him live with you and your church.” He says nothing about being the bell ringer unpaid. [Leslie] Quasimodo’s probably getting paid. That’s probably how he’s getting his paints and his wood for his little carvings. He’s probably sending people out to buy stuff for him. [Patrick] What, has he got a shopping list? [Leslie] No, he’s got an Etsy store though. I wish he had an Etsy store, actually. Completely seriously, I would love to buy those little wooden figurines. You know what, Emily? I will concede here and say that you might possibly may be onto something, because the Archdeacon knows what kind of a person Claude Frollo is. The Archdeacon didn’t have to demand that Frollo raise Quasimodo. I feel like the Archdeacon should have known what kind of childhood and larger life he was signing Quasimodo up for there. I mean, the Archdeacon could have adopted Quasimodo. Still would have lived in the bell tower, but he would have had a nicer dad. [Emily] Well, not just his treatment of Quasimodo, but Esmeralda as well, because when she comes into Notre Dame, one of the first things that he says to her when she’s upset about Frollo is, oh, “it’s not good to anger Frollo any farther.” So he is very, very well aware of Frollo’s temper. So I’ll echo what you said, Leslie, about building such a community through this movie. And I have to agree on that, especially through the musical adaptations that I’ve been able to see. I’ve met so many friends that I’m still friends with today, and got to travel to so many different countries. So I absolutely love that community aspect. And well, as Leslie said as well, that includes you guys. I don’t know about you guys, but time flies so fast. And I cannot believe that in two weeks, it’ll be 30 years of this movie. [Leslie] I know. And I think we have chosen the perfect way to commemorate that huge milestone. Listener, all you need to know is that’s going to feature a live-streamed Q&A with some of the incredible legends who worked on this movie. I am so excited that you guys are going to get to talk to these people and learn a little bit about what it was like to make this movie 30 years ago and a little bit about what they think of this film’s legacy and the fact that there are so many people out there still championing this movie and trying to get it on stage in their area and trying to bring it to Broadway and trying to spread the word about this incredible movie to more people, even now, 30 years later. And listener, I really hope that you were able to join that wonderful fan celebration with us. It’s going to be so much fun. It’s going to be an event to remember, truly. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Hunchcast. Ring that notification bell to be automatically updated when new episodes are released. If you liked this episode, please take a moment to give this podcast a five-star rating or review. It really helps our show get in front of new people. For free bonus content and to share your thoughts with us, follow us on Instagram, Tumblr, and TikTok at The Hunchcast. The Hunchcast of Notre Dame is a production of 1482 Media. All rights reserved.

Chapter 9: Screw your courage to the sticking place Something interesting happens… Esmeralda had spent the day alone in her room, wringing her hands and pacing back and forth. When Pierre had dropped her off the other morning, he had been quiet, reserved and hadn’t lingered long. So, anxiously she waited, like a lioness prowling behind the bars of a cage. Thoughts of Quasimodo, Phoebus, Clopin and her family clouded her. However, these thoughts were nothing like Frollo—how he gnawed at her, consumed her thoughts, her very mind. That night she slept fitfully again. Once she awoke, her hair was tangled and a mess. The sheets had been strewn onto the floor and she found herself, curled inwards, her knees tucked against her chest. She felt like a young child again, the young child that found herself snuggled up against her family members to keep warm during those cold winter nights. There was no one to warm her now. What is the plan now? What was his ? Did he really expect to keep her like this? Trapped? And of all things, doing bible studies? She could see it in the way his gaze lingered, like smoke…very akin to the same outside. The way it traveled down and flicked back up when she caught him. It disgusted her. Esmeralda had seen these lewd displays before. She had seen men leer at her while she danced, even when she walked in the streets but none such sights as Frollo. Being exotic and forbidden was something that enticed the human psyche but it did not entice the object of it. Esmeralda had always enjoyed dancing, especially with her family and friends at the Court. They did not share those same expressions of lust and lechrous need. They appreciated her beauty, her skill, and her dance. However, she could not expect that from the rest of the world and especially Frollo. She knew how it was: she was a toy. Something to own, to trifle with, to possess. It had been the object of her insanity. Esmeralda was stuck with a man that would only see her as an object. That was all he was to her and for how long would she be this thing ? The idea choked her. Understand him. Well, she was trying to and the reality of how she might have to leave was not satisfying her. Perhaps there was a way to trust him…without sacrificing herself. For a lustful man, he had declined the offer of her body when they had met all those days ago. The idea was abhorrent and disgusting but what was one act…one dreadful and disgusting act for freedom? But why did he resist? She would get him to trust her, yes. That was the plan since day one. Esmeralda despised waiting for his move but Frollo despite all his bark was a skittish thing. Not skittish in the way of cowering but that he would lash out when threatened or prodded at—even when he did the same to her. She did not want to bite her tongue but she might have to, more often than she would like to. He just…it was hard not to. He was a man with ridiculous logic and an even more ridiculous sense of superiority. What hadn’t she tried that yet? Try to talk to him . You do already. You know what I mean. Esmeralda scoffed and plodded over to the wardrobe. She knew what lay inside. Afterall, she had combed the wretched room all those days ago when she had first arrived. Tentatively, her hand grazed the doorknob and she gripped it, swinging it open. It was dark within. She had felt the fabric of his clothing before. Unlike him, it was soft and delicate, concealing all the fury which was Frollo. Her hands thumbed the fabric, pinching it in between her fingers. Throwing a glance over her shoulder, she pulled out a robe yet did not take it off its hanger. It was a cool shade of blue. Nothing like the harsh reds that he donned now. Click, click. Whirling around, she slammed the door behind her and turned to meet her visitor. She furrowed her brows as she watched the knob twist and turn to her bedroom door. Pierre always knocked whenever he came in. Instinctively, she moved a few paces away from the wardrobe. It wasn’t… wrong to look at his clothing. But a sickening feeling had settled in her stomach. Like she was invading him even while in her own room. A maid appeared. She was a small, skittish looking thing with large eyes, a gaunt face and a pointed chin. She clasped her hands in front of each other. Quietly she spoke but Esmeralda could only see her lips move. The woman might as well have been a mute or Esmeralda deaf. “What?” Esmeralda repeated. The young maid cleared her throat and spoke a little louder from across the room, “The minister requests that you join him for dinner.” What. “Huh? What did you just say?” Esmeralda wasn’t sure if she had heard the maid correctly. The maid in turn rolled her eyes and repeated, “The minister requests that you join him for dinner.” Idly, the maid fiddled with her hands. Esmeralda’s gaze snapped down to the dress she was wearing. It had become wrinkled over time. Her hand ran over the fabric and she pulled at the small ruffle of her sleeve. Dinner, hm? She remembered dressing up for the various feasts that the Court of Miracles had. While the amount of feasts depending on the harvest and luck, there was always a Christmas feast. The Romani dropped her hand and looked to the maid. The maid turned her gaze downwards towards the rug. For a moment the thought to say “ no ” crossed her mind. But then where would she be? In her room? Alone? For another day? Another week? Why in God’s name did he want her in his dining room? To…share dinner with him? Her brows furrowed. Frollo was truly a strange old man. Psychotic. Lustful. Weird, all around. Dinner could go any which way. I have to go. —— While she walked, her mind was at work. The maid’s footsteps whispered on the carpet and Esmeralda made sure to keep an eye on her as they wound through the endless halls. The Palace of Justice was a maze, one with many faces lurking around corners: statues and paintings alike glared at her as she passed. Esmeralda, lost in thought, almost bumped into the maid when they arrived at a set of double oak doors. The woman stepped back and gripped the doorhandle, then pushed it open to reveal the dining hall. It was a grand place, far more grand than any place she had the privilege to dine in. The room had high ceilings, floor to ceiling windows, and opposite the windows, a fireplace was roaring with life. Her gaze roamed all about the room, dodging the dining table before her. Tapestries of the finest craftsmanship and beautiful paintings were hung up on the stone wall. Then she sucked in a breath when she looked at the table. That dark stormy gaze was already fixed on her. “Leave us,” Frollo commanded. For a moment, Esmeralda hoped that he was speaking to her. The door shutting behind her told her otherwise. She was truly alone now. Frollo was wearing his usual attire, the purple and black robes, and that stupid hat. The Romani girl stood frozen, her hands held in front of her as though she were a statue. The pair exchanged stony glares from across the room. The firelight threw shades of crimson upon each of both faces, one youthful and the other gaunt. What does he want? The aroma of the feast upon the dining table hit her, flooding her senses. Unable to help it, her eyes scanned over the food. Steak, soup, bread…the whole array was out on the table. The rest of the chairs were empty…a feast for two and too much for two certainly. Esmeralda restrained a scowl and edged forward. Frollo turned his gaze to his food and began to eat in small, delicate bites. He looked like a dainty mouse, almost, if that makes any sense at all. Again, suppressing another emotion from crossing her face, she opted to get it over with and stepped to the head of the table, directly across from Frollo. Frollo looked up and his brow shot up, “You do not sit there.” Esmeralda cleared her throat, “Then pray tell, where do I sit?” A bit of a mocking edge entered her voice before she could stop it. Placidly, Frollo reached out and gripped the chair at his left side: “Here.” Too close. It was the first two words that entered her mind. Grounding herself, Esmeralda marched across the sophisticated battlefield which was Frollo’s dining room. Frollo had to be planning something, something . But thankfully, she was planning something as well. Or had planned should she say. Esmeralda had learned that when she worked on the whim…she tended to be rash. Esmeralda came to halt behind her chair. His rings caught in the fireplace light, the red and blue, she was acquainted with them. She didn’t let her sour face show at the memory. His hand gripped the back of the chair tightly, his knuckles turning white. “Do you want me to sit or not?” Esmeralda raised a brow at him. Frollo relinquished his hold without another word and returned to his food. Was he being quiet or was she crazy? Keeping her face neutral, she settled herself down in her seat and glanced down towards the food adorned upon the table. For a few long painful moments, she sat quietly, wringing her hands in her lap, quite unsure how to act. “Eat,” she heard him finally say. His eyes were on her again and gooseflesh rose on her arms. A part of her didn’t want to: for the sake of her ordering to do something at all. Yet another smelled the fresh aroma. Hesitantly, she heaped a few portions onto her plate, careful not to clink the silverware or scrape the plate…the last thing she needed was Frollo’s anger. Dinner dragged on, the silence stretched thinly over the hall, taut and ripe to be sliced. The embers of the fire flickered gently, licking and eating away at the logs in the fireplace. “How did you sleep?” he said, cutting through the quiet. Esmeralda lost in thought, looked up at him, screwing up her brows. “What?” “I asked you a question, Gypsy. How did you sleep?” he reiterated, an edge creeping into his voice. “As well as one can in the Palace of Justice,” she quipped, shoveling another mouthful of steak down her gullet. She wasn’t quite sure what he wanted her to say. How in God’s name was she supposed to answer his question? She was plagued by nightmares every other night and could barely sleep. Didn’t he know that? Frollo cleared his throat and leaned forward, holding his fork daintily in his right hand. “Well then…” he continued, undeterred, “Your day then?” Esmeralda sputtered and turned to him, aghast. “My day?” she then narrowed her eyes, “Why are you talking to me?” Her voice was laced with suspicion. The Romani leaned back in her chair and observed him. “Talking?” “Yes, talking. You’re acting strange. Like for example inviting me to dinner,” Esmeralda said, her voice laced with suspicion. “Because, my dear, you are my guest,” Frollo answered promptly, taking a sip from his goblet. Guest? “Well, that is a generous way to put it, don’t you think?” Esmeralda crossed her arms over her chest. Frollo said idly, “You eat, sleep and are clothed in the way a guest would be.” “That doesn’t automatically make you one,” Esmeralda countered. “A guest can leave freely.” The Minister swiped, “Well, I can make your stay far less pleasant if you would like. The dungeons I’m sure will have a room for you.” Dodging the implication. Esmeralda frowned. “Are they empty right now?” Esmeralda probed, daring to lean a little forward. Frollo gave her a sidelong glance, “Quite. Ever since I sent out the order for your search and arrest, the city has been rather quiet.” The Minister said it so plainly that Esmeralda almost thought he was drugged. How could he say such a thing with so little remorse? At least…she supposed the dungeons were mostly empty—if he was telling the truth. And therefore, her fellow Romani or at least most of them escaped before they were captured. “Search and arrest? Was that all it was?” Esmeralda tested. “Gypsy.” he warned, his eyes narrowing at her. “I do not want to quarrel with you tonight. It is all we do, endlessly .” “Well, you know, it is hard not to. You have, after all, persecuted my people for years—by means of torture, slaughters, beatings. And other…personal things.” Esmeralda curled her fists in her lap and tried to maintain her composure. As she looked upon him, all she could see was flashes of the cruelties inflicted on her family—the green and purple bruises that scarred Clopin’s body blazed in her mind, the blood in the streets, the smell of charred bones. “I have many reasons to dislike you.” Frollo graced her with another look—it was one as equally unpleasant as her own. He set his silverware down on the table and reclined back into his sturdy chair. “And I you. Yet…” his gaze pierced her. “…I am determined to save your soul as I promised. Are you willing to break your promise to me , Gypsy?” Her fist tightened at that word . The frown etched on her face deepened. “If I break my promise, you will wreck havoc all over Paris again and my family will pay for it. Do you seriously think I would do that?” That day began to burn away at the barriers of her mind. Oh, how frightfully vague her promise had been to him: I choose you. At least, he had not asked for anything more than conversion but…she could tell by that hungry look, he desired more—it made her skin crawl. “No,” he said simply. The Minister did not comment further as predicted. How deluded he was…it made her blood boil. She had a feeling that if she kept prodding him that he would boil over, so…she took a different approach. “So, what can I expect during my stay?” Esmeralda asked. Her gaze flitted down to her food, afraid to look him in the eye. It had been a question that had been tormenting her. She would manipulate her way into escape, she had to…but what did Frollo have planned? More bible studies? “Conversion,” he said curtly, taking a swig from his goblet. “How boring,” she mumbled under her breath. Frollo shot her a look while he drank. “And what else?” Esmeralda asked, reaching for her own goblet and taking a sip of the wine. “What would you like?” Frollo countered, rather casually—dropping those four words as if he were asking about the weather. Esmeralda sputtered. She grabbed frantically for a napkin and coughed into it. Frollo watched her with a disgusted curl of his lip. Did he get hit on the head before dinner? The Romani girl took a few moments to compose herself and then straightened herself. “Well,” she turned to him. “I would like to leave but I’m sure that’s out of the question, right?” “Yes. Certainly.” Frollo’s fingers were wrapped around his goblet and idly he tapped the rim. “However, I can provide anything else you may require until your Journey to God is complete.” “When will that be?” “When I determine you are redeemed,” Frill said sternly. Ah, how convenient. Esmeralda stayed quiet for a few moments. The firelight flickered, casting long shadows along the wall behind her. Her own shadow stretched far above the tapestries, clawing at the windows above. “I would like to freely leave my room,” Esmeralda asked. She did despite being trapped in there all hours of the day apart from her studying sessions with Frollo—which were not a treat. If he truly wanted to grant a request of hers…it would be that one. “Then you may. I will instruct the maids to keep the door unlocked,” Frollo replied, placidly. “But…” he raised a finger and gave her a grim look, a stare that made her straighten. “You may not speak to my nephew under any circumstances.” Esmeralda suppressed the urge to raise her brow. Well, I already did. And your nephew didn’t tell you? Frollo continued, “He is a rather impressionable boy and I do not want the likes of you to taint his mind.” The Minister raised his knife and began to cut at the steak on his plate with ferocity. While the Minister had his gaze turned away, she rolled her eyes, “If you wish.” That was one less person to talk to, she supposed. And it was such a shame because she could learn a lot about Frollo through the boy. However…it did seem that Jehan Junior did not tell his uncle about speaking to her… Interesting. That could be an advantage. “I didn’t know you had a nephew,” Esmeralda piped up. The Minister raised his head to look upon her, he said curtly, “Yes, I have a niece as well. Both are spawns of my younger brother.” And a younger brother? How hadn’t she heard of any of these family members? And why was the nephew with Frollo? “Hm, and you are taking care of the nephew? Why?” Frollo momentarily had a quizzical look upon his face before answering, “John. Or I suppose Jehan Junior as my brother named him. My niece is under my care as well.” As he was still cutting, the knife scraped against the plate. Esmeralda winced. “They are under my care because my brother is away .” Esmeralda nodded her head, awkwardly as she took in the Minister’s words. Quasimodo. The niece? The nephew? How many children does this guy take care of? A giggle escaped her before she could clasp a hand over her mouth. The Minister’s neck snapped in her direction and he barked, “What are you laughing about?” “Just…” Esmeralda drew her hand away from her face and sucked in a deep breath, trying to contain herself. “I was just surprised about how many children you have been saddled with.” Frollo stared at her for a moment as if frozen, his utensils held inches from the plate. “Ah.” he said. “That does tend to happen to me, doesn’t it?” His lip twitched. Esmeralda shrugged, “I guess so.” The faint crackle of the fireplace caught her attention. The Romani girl poked at her food with cautiousness before taking another bite. She snuck another glance at him once he was sure he wasn’t looking—his eyes were glued to his plate. Is he trying to be charming? The dinner? The talking? She suppressed the urge to shake her head. What a ludicrous man. And that was certainly understating it. Esmeralda studied him as his gaze shifted from the plate to the fireplace—the furrowing of his brows, the frown tugging at his lips. The flames reflected back in his dark eyes like a mirror, blazing and red. “Do you have any family?” he asked, breaking the silence once more. His gaze turned to meet hers and he caught her. His eyes widened and she snapped her attention elsewhere, gazing at her own plate. “Family?” she reiterated and looked up. “The whole court is my family.” “Blood family,” he said drily. Esmeralda answered, “My parents but they both died when I was young. And you know, blood isn’t everything. My brother Clopin is the closest thing to family for me.” Esmeralda pointed out, prodding her fork in his direction. “Blood is thicker than water…” he challenged and raised a brow. “The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb,” she countered. Frollo said in return, “And yet blood is about 4.5 times thicker than water, scientifically and in actuality.“ “Scientifically?” Esmeralda blinked and narrowed her eyes. “Science has no weight in love.” “The art of science is the love of knowledge,” Frollo said, waving a hand. “I am talking about the love of people, not things.” Esmeralda responded, a grimace tugging at her lips. And you would know all about that wouldn’t you? “Science is not a thing —it is alive, tangible. It is something that you would not understand,” Frollo spoke rather indignantly, crossing his arms. The pair—inches away—stared at each other with narrowed eyes, crossed arms and closed hearts. “For a man of the law, you have a lot of opinions of things that are not of your expertise.” Esmeralda brushed a strand of hair out of her eyes as she glared at him. “I could say the same for you, Gypsy,” Frollo swiped. The Minister snatched up his goblet and held it in his hand, all the while staring back. “You have quite a lot of opinions for a street urchin. I myself have indulged in study all my life—law, science, philosophy, religion…” “To read a book is one thing, to live it is another, Frollo,” Esmeralda said with finality. She caught his left eye twitch. It seemed she was getting on his nerves finally: good . Although, a headache was beginning to pound behind her own eye. “I have to ask…” she blurted out before he could speak. “You say I am here so you can convert me, right?” Esmeralda waited with baited breath. The Minister took his time to answer and studied her carefully before he spoke, “Yes.” “Then…” The Romani girl twiddled with her fingers in her lap but her eyes were unflinching. “Why not have the Archdeacon convert me? You know, it would be a lot more pleasant for both of us.” Frollo visibly stiffened, his shoulders becoming more square. A nasty sneer contorted his face, “I am more than capable of converting you on my own. And I’m sure you remember the whole fiasco that followed after you escaped Notre Dame.” Frollo downed a sip of his wine. Esmeralda bit her tongue. “Do you really think I am that naive? That I would let you back in there and escape from the law again ? I am not one of your boys that you may charm at will. Quasimodo may have fallen prey to your wiles but not I.” Esmeralda felt her hands close around each other, squeezing, “He did not fall prey to me.” “You bewitched him,” he said, plainly. “He helped me of his own free will. Because he is a kind person. Because he didn’t want me to be trapped and depressed in a place with no way out.” Esmeralda bit out, shooting him a scathing look. Something I am sure you will never know. The implication was not lost on Frollo as his gaze flicked to the Romani girl. Instead of facing her, his attention turned to the swirling drink in his goblet. “I am more than capable of teaching you in the ways of our Lord.” He snapped, the facade of calm disappearing before her very eyes. “I know far more than that Archdeacon could ever know. It would be best if we continue your education here and purge you of your heathen habits my way.” Esmeralda let out a sigh and buried her face in her hands. Heat was beginning to build in her chest, threatening to boil over any minute. He’s lying. He has to know it. Everyone knows it. “I am after all your judge,” Frollo continued. “You are under my care.” How comforting. Esmeralda pulled her hands away from her face and asked, “May I excuse myself?” Her nails were digging into her thighs, the fabric bunching up under her touch. How she wanted to claw at his face until those loathsome eyes were nothing but fleshy sockets. “Did you eat enough?” Frollo returned, a calm eeriness in his voice. Esmeralda for the third time tonight stared at him, her jaw slack. The plate was almost empty before her and she wasn’t sure if she could eat anymore without vomiting. “Yes—yes! I’m fine,” she sputtered out, waving a hand at him. The Romani girl was about to stalk off towards the double doors when she stopped in her tracks and spun around. Frollo, as expected, was still looking at her, even as she was leaving. “Are you…” she knew it was a mistake to ask but it was so bizarre she had to. “Are you trying to be charming?” Frollo blinked at that statement, “What?” “I can see right through you, Frollo. Do not play with me. It doesn’t suit you, at all,” With that, Esmeralda finally left, leaving a dumbfounded Frollo in her wake.